With TPP, the devil is in the detail

Details ?

Details ?

No one wants to know the details.
Detaisl are tiresome.

Even the MPs who will vote for it don't know and don't want to know the details.

Go back to sleep, it's better for everyone that way.

Sure, go ahead! Sign it! Obama would never do anything to hurt Canada, would he?

Fair enough. But wouldn't you rather decisions were made by experts rather than the twits we send to Ottawa? I don't care if my MP reads the bills he votes on. I don't even care if he can read at all. What I want is for him to listen to experts and act on their advice. That's the single most important characteristic in a politician: willingness to ignore the morons, even if they're a loud majority, and fashion policy on expert opinion.

Of course, decisions made in the absolute best interests of Canada.

Only problem is, I don't think I have actually seen one of those in my life.

Of course, decisions made in the absolute best interests of Canada.

Only problem is, I don't think I have actually seen one of those in my life.

^^ This!

Everything I've read from 'experts' says this won't be good for Canadians, but will be really good for Corporations. Mostly foreign ones.

And once we are in it, there will be no 'out' if we realized it really is bad for Canada.

The problem is you can't prove a negative. If the deal does seem bad for Canada, how can we know that, if we hadn't signed it, things would have been even worse?

I've not read the ins and outs of the deal and trade economics isn't my forte, but in general, the world is liberalizing trade. We can try to be isolationist but that absolutely will hurt Canada far more than being part of the globalization movement. Of that last point I'm certain. And maybe this deal isn't the right deal, but if it isn't, that doesn't mean we should scrap the whole idea of a deal. As the thread title suggests, the details ought to be the issue, not whether we do a deal or not.

And Marty, dude, there isn't a single thing that Canada's government has done in your lifetime that you think has been in the best interests of the country? Really, or are you just being your usual grumpy self?

Well, when you deem yourself to represent all of Canada, maybe not. This is the problem with the "the government should be more responsive to the people" crowd. Which people? It's not as if Canada has a consensus on any issue. And when the govt does something the majority of Canadians agree with, the same crowd will bitch about the govt just pandering to polls.

Are you better off than your parents were? That's the measure right there.

Many Chinese can certainly say that. We're seeing global income redistribution, and there doesn't seem to be much anybody can do about it. Also, the top 20% in your and my country can certainly say that. I thought you were one of them, what's your beef?

I have no qualms about the trade aspects - they seem sort of favourable. Reduced tarrifs, if not elimination of them. Sounds good.

It's the Intellectual Property aspects that worry me. The ability of corporations to take from the Public Domain, but not return anything. It's also the criminalization of previously civil infringements on copyright, and the ability of corporations to control how we use the things that we buy from them. If I bought it, is it not mine? That's precisely how VW got away with it's bullshit, because no one was allowed to reverse engineer the code in their cars to see if it was legit or not. Now with cars becoming more and more connected, how can I be sure that I am not vulnerable? How can I even make minor repairs if the virtual 'hood' is welded shut on me? And I'm taking a course on Internet of Things security, and basically what we are learning is; there is no security on IoT devices.

Much of the negativity toward this deal I've encountered is about the non-trade aspects of it. I've even seen it described as the new 'Corporate Bill of Rights'. Not happy thoughts.

No question, Intellectual Property is a big issue in international trade. The Chinese have been pressing out illegal music, movies and software since the dawn of the intertwine. There's an interesting case with John Deere about what, exactly, a person owns when they buy a JD tractor.

One solution, which I've supported since forever, is to eliminate the corporation as a legal form of business ownership. The whole notion of a "dummy corporation" is redundant. That's what they all are, dummies. Business owners oughtn't be able to absolve themselves from liability for the actions of their companies.

I could make this into a Khar length post, but I'll try to keep it short.


Auto Pact was a good deal for us, all our numbers went up.
However, the work stayed in Southern Ontario, did not get spread out across the country, was too sensitive to the US economy, and did not help create a Canadian auto industry, by keeping all R&D in the US.

NAFTA has been a 50-50. Some jobs created, but we opened up for way too many Canadian companies to be taken over by foreigners, and adding Mexico a third world country has hurt our industrial base.

I don't believe everyone is cut out for, or should go to university.
When you agree, then you should also agree that we need to maintain a strong industrial
base, so the non-university types can get work and provide for a family.

So making deals with countries that have much lower standards of living and much lower labour costs isn't always a good idea. We hurt our own industrial workers, screw up our
industrial abilities and training, so now we make stupid decisions like buying ferries from the Germans, and subs from the Brits. We should be making these things ourselves.


We have lost whatever economic pressure we might have had with the US.
The clear evidence is in the softwood lumber fights, and Keystone.
The Americans just don't give a fuck, because they own us more and more every day.


We are still hewers of wood and drawers of water, and now we can see since all commodity
prices are in the doldrums, we are getting hurt really badly.
House prices in Fort Crack are off 20%, or $120,000 per house. I imagine Calgary and
Edmonton aren't that far behind, or will be in the spring, once EI starts running out.


I haven't read the TPP either, but I imagine it will be more of the same:
Chinese drywall
Vietnamese fish
Indonesian heavy production
Thai wood
and more South American food will all come flying into Canada, to the detriment
of our heavy and agricultural industries.


Fine for them, but then how are our living standards doing ?

Freedom 55, remember that ?
I remember the ads, don't see that many people doing it though.

As we keep spending money on everyone else's crap, we don't make or buy our own crap.
They rise, we fall. It really is a race to the bottom.

I'm sure the corporations will do fine, though.




Might be an interesting idea, but it is sooooooooooo not going to happen.

Nice to see a thoughtful post from you, Martin. But Lemmy's question still stands - how would we be doing if we hadn't signed those deals? Even the US doesn't have the leverage to go it alone, shut it's borders. As other countries start to catch up after WWII, they're just not going to be able to maintain their dominance. Even harder for us, with our small population, we were never in a position to be insular.

I bitch as much as anybody about losing our jobs to other countries and depressing our wages, but I haven't heard one person come up with a scheme that would actually reverse that. Not from the left, not from the right. As long as capitalism is the order of the day, all this seems inevitable. And as some people point out, it equalizes incomes between 1st and third world. Problem is we seem to be going down the road of the 3rd world, with the elite at the top getting all the benefits, the rest of the people in all countries being peons. And people like you usually defend that system.

I recall that, well. Don't get me wrong, companies that pump out fake Gucci bags and barely functioning car parts should face huge fines and/or lengthy prison sentences. But I don't think some Grandma should be bankrupted by legal costs or corporate extortion because her grandson downloaded a song on her wi-fi. I also don't think some guy handycamming a movie should face more jail time than a rapist.



I think the whole notion of 'Corporate Personhood' should be removed. Companies of a certain size still need a Board of Directors, etc. but they should be held personally accountable for the actions of the Corporation, because the Corporation is not a 'person' and has no free will.