Toronto man launches court challenge against police carding

correct me if I am wrong but, unless you are operating a motor vehicle on a public road you are not required to carry or show ID to anyone even the police. You must give them your name, but are not required to show or carry any form of ID. If you do not give your name, you could be charged with obstruction.

Now, the 'reason' why they would want to stop and ask is another story all together, that likely, is where his real beef would lie.

The real beef lies in why this is so necessary in Toronto but not other jurisdictions? Furthermore, some of us have family that have fought in wars overseas to fight tyranny. Did they risk their lives so that it can be imported into their home country?

If the police find these areas are problem areas, than have them out of their cars and walking the beat in pairs. Get to know the neighbourhood, build relationships in uniform not with a self serving undercovers trying to pinch some kids for weed, do real community policing. This idea of "community policing" where you card any suspicious looking person, is not community building at all. Furthermore it is pushing the line further to the side of fascism.

In the US anymore the practice of police stopping you and asking for ID is how many departments train their officers to initiate control of an individual. It is deliberately intimidating and it is meant to squelch any objection to whatever the police officer is doing.

The US Supreme Court has ruled that absent probable cause to suspect you've committed a crime the police have no right to ask you for ID. Despite this the police continue the practice because it's an effective and very threatening tool.

The problem comes along when someone is doing something perfectly legal, like taking a picture of a Federal courthouse from a public space, and the police demand ID and then threaten arrest unless they get it. In some cases they make good on the threat of arrest and the usual "contempt of cop" charges are cited such as "obstruction of justice" and my favorite: "resisting arrest".

The courts are getting wise to this lately and in some states the judges get irate if someone is charged solely with "resisting arrest" as the reason why they were arrested.

But all of this can occur if you don't show ID even though you don't have to.

When I lived in Calfornia, Is topped carrying a backpack to school, because of all the times the cops stopped me to search the bag.

I've had police ask me questions when I was a teenager, I always abided by their request, I don't even consider saying "no", and I imagine most feel the same. Some people have a strong trust in uniformed police doing the right thing and don't see it as a threat.

Times have changed dramatically, especially in regards as to how "interactions" and "incidents" can ruin lives. It's preposterous and one of the reasons I am a strong libertarian. We are becoming precisely like the animal I was raised to despise. I can tell you this much, the biggest loser is the nation as more and more people are denied access to contribution and the global economy demands the best and brightest for success.

Arbitrary stop, search and questioning have no business happening in this country.

What's really disturbing is how wholeheartedly the police are behind doing this. Are the police really at war against the rest of us?

In high school I never really had a problem with the cops until I traded my moped for an old Harley. For the approximately three months I owned that thing I must have gotten stopped at least two or three times a week. Each time I was stopped I was interrogated, searched, and occasionally handcuffed on the side of the road. When I sold it and bought another moped my problems magically disappeared.

See, I came to the conclusion that it didn't matter to the cops that driving a Harley was legal. As far as they were concerned it was a crime.

Life lesson learned.

Tyranny? Really? I don't always agree with what the police do, but comparing them to the enemies faced in the World Wars? Go get your head checked. You claim to have had relatives fight for our way of life. By comparing the police to fascists, you are blowing your nose with what those relatives held dear. A person in uniform is still a person in uniform. Or have we forgotten that?



If you can do a better job, by all meas do so! I'm sorry, but as much as I've been known to rag on the police for various things, I would not want to, nor do I have the stones to be a police officer, and deal with all the crap/criminals/dead bodies/head cases/et al that they have to contend with on a daily basis.

I might criticize the police, but I respect what they do.

-J.

Who doesn't respect what the majority of police do? I also respect what a miner does at a lower rate, less glamour and more danger. How about seeing the things an EMS worker sees? As much as most police are trustworthy, there are some that shouldn't be police officers, and there is an element of a culture that refuses to change and evolve as it is insulated from the same level of accountability most employers demand.

A particular policy and the defense of that policy doesn't get a free pass just because it is a difficult job. What you might deem an inconvenience is a feeling of persecution when you are carded 30-40 times while coming home from work. You have a man with a gun who can handcuff you and arrest you, take away your freedom...being carded for doing nothing more than going home is quite undemocratic.

There are plenty of cops who deserve respect and unfortunately many who do not. Julien Fantino and Bill Blair both lead the Toronto Police force, I respect neither of them and they were supposed to be the shining example to the force. The days of blind faith are long gone, the internet, social media and video cameras among other among other advanced in technology have ensured that.

Perhaps, but you skirted around the issue of comparing the police to 'fascists' that preach 'tyranny'. Would you like to address this, or come up with another way to dodge it?

Is your respect for people in uniform limited to family only? If so, are you not setting a double standard?

-J.

A quick google provided this definition.
Tyranny: cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control.

Tyranny began in Germany well before they attacked a country and started the long, dark period in history known as WWII. I am sure you understand the obvious comparisons when police over reach. The process of escalation in policing was much sharper and intense in the late 1930's until the attack on Poland, but we can't go down a slow and gradual slope ourselves regardless of our belief we would never become a dictatorship. The police had "ghetto administration units" that terrorized citizens, this included unwarranted stops (carding?), general harassment and bullying of citizens who weren't committing any crimes.

Carding might seem like basic harassment, but it can be argued it is an abuse of Universal Human Rights which we are a signee of. I even heard Mark Saunders suggest something to the effect that he had been carded multiple times himself because he wore his hat backwards, and at that time it in tv shows and movies it depicted a particular "profile". Truly this guy cannot be serious. If police services are taking their cue from Hollywood we are in deep trouble. There have been multiple studies on the impact/effectiveness of carding paid for by the taxpayer that Bill Blair refused to release, multiple recommendations. As usual, the status quo is just easier to follow.

Carding people and making note of their whereabouts,their comings and goings; even if we set aside the issue of race, is still akin to what might have been happening in South Africa 40 years ago.

In high school I never really had a problem with the cops until I traded my moped for an old Harley. For the approximately three months I owned that thing I must have gotten stopped at least two or three times a week. Each time I was stopped I was interrogated, searched, and occasionally handcuffed on the side of the road. When I sold it and bought another moped my problems magically disappeared.

See, I came to the conclusion that it didn't matter to the cops that driving a Harley was legal. As far as they were concerned it was a crime.

Life lesson learned.
Had the same problem with my '71 Mach 1 and '71 Chevelle SS 454. Although in those cases, most of the time the cops were either gearheads or wanted to see what they might have to chase down one day. I was never handcuffed though, at least not for what I was driving

This is incorrect. Unless you are being arrested, you do not have to give them your name or show ID. Only under that condition are you 'obstructing' if you don't give your name or show ID if you have some.

And the best part about 'carding', it can show up on a criminal records check!

You do have to show ID if you are driving and have been stopped by police, always. You do not have to show ID if you are a passenger.



I have to wonder too if the adversarial nature of the Police vs the Public is part of the reason you guys are seeing so much backlash between the two. I don't recall ever feeling intimidated by police at large (just specific), and right now with the death of a local officer you can drive in parts of the city and every single pole or tree has a blue ribbon around it. So I think most people here feel that way too.

But in Toronto, where they practice 'carding' it seems the people and the police aren't getting along too well.

I think there are a lot of reasons why there's an adversarial conflict between police and the public in the USA. But two key factors are the proliferation of firearms and cops' salaries.
First, the proliferation of firearms means that any time the cops show up to investigate, they have to assume the public is armed. So interactions begin like a Mexican stand off. Naturally, the cops are on adrenaline. How could they not be?
Second, cops in the USA make, on average $45,000/yr. It's an immutable universal truth in labour economics that you get what you pay for. Who do you expect to attract to the job when you're offering $45K? Who would take on the job risk of being a cop in America for $45K? Answer: people who weigh the "perk" of getting to bully and beat people as compensation enough to make up for the shit pay.


It's more about parts of Toronto resembling urban USA (racially segregated, broken families, low-income, high crime rates and lots of guns) than it is about the carding, I'd say. But when you already mistrust the cops, carding is likely not going to help improve that.