Sorry Ford Nation, there's something to this whole story, way to fishy.
The known timeline of Rob Ford video scandal (with help from Wikipedia)
Date Withheld Toronto Police Service confirm that gang members under telephone wiretap during a Guns and Gangs investigation mention the existence of a video purpotedly showing Rob Ford smoking crack. Public and media are not advised until long after the story breaks in the press
March 2013 Two men are targeted in a shooting. One is killed, the other wounded. After the story of the allaeged Ford crack video breaks in May, the targeted men would be revealed to be 2 of the 3 men in a photo that is allegedly a screenshot of the 2012 video in which Ford smokes Crack cocaine. The deceased in Anthony Smith.
Rob Ford attempts to visit an inmate in the Toronto West Detention Centre, Bruno Bellissimo, after visiting hours. Though the visit would not become public until August, the newspaper calls Bellissimo a "new character" in the video scandal, who has been involved in drugs and attended secondary school with one of the residents of the Rexdale bungalow where Ford was photographed.
Wednesday, May 3 Toronto Star reporters Robyn Doolittle and Kevin Donovan meet with Mohamed "Soya" Siad, 27, an alleged member of the Dixon City Bloods, in the back seat of a car in the parking lot of 320 Dixon Road. Siad allows the reporters to view the Ford video on a cellphone three times and says he might sell it for a "six-figure price" so that he can move to Alberta, Canada
Thursday, May 16 Gawker and Star Break the story, releasing a photo of Ford with Anthony Smith (murdered in March 2013) and 2 others. The photo is allegedly a screenshot of a 2012 video in which Ford smokes crack cocaine
Friday, May 17 Ford denies video and claims that as a public figure, he poses for pictures with countless strangers. However, David Price, a long-time friend of Ford, informs Ford's Chief of Staff Mark Towhey of the location of the video at an apartment complex on Dixon Road in Etobicoke. Towhey advises Price to speak to the Toronto Police. Towhey contacts the police, who take a statement from Price. Radio station Newstalk 1010 reports that it was offered the alleged video for $20,000.
Tuesday, May 21 A man is shot, requiring hospitalization, at a 17th floor apartment in the Dixon Road apartment complex and the home where the photo of Rob Ford was taken is the target of a home invasion. The home is located several hundred metres from the Dixon Road apartment complex. One resident of the home was an acquaintance of Ford from high school, whose mother owns the house. Area Residents have complained previously of a steady stream of traffic between the complex and the home, prompting a fence to be erected to block traffic. Two residents of the house have criminal records, one for minor thefts, one for trafficking cocaine. Maclean's later identified the victims of the home invasion as Fabio Basso, Ford's long-time friend, and Basso's girlfriend. Resident Elena Basso tells Star reporters at her house that “Rob Ford’s the greatest mayor ever. You guys are scavengers.”
Thursday, May 23 Ford fires his chief of staff, Mark Towhey. Towhey is escorted out of City Hall by security. Several reports state that Towhey was fired for telling Ford to get help at a rehab centre
Friday, May 24 Hanad Mohamed, who is alleged to have appeared in the video, is arrested in Fort McMurray, Alberta for the March murder of Anthony Smith, who appeared in the photo with Ford.
Monday, May 27 Ford's press secretary and deputy press secretary resign and leave City Hall before Ford arrives
Tuesday, May 28 The Toronto Sun reports that it also was offered the alleged video but declined
Thursday, May 30 Two more of Ford's staff resign, Brian Johnston, a policy advisor and council relations specialist, and Kia Nejatian, an executive assistant
A National Post reporter visits the apartment in the Dixon Road complex where the video was alleged to be stored and speaks to the resident. The resident describes how his apartment was previously rented by a drug dealer. The resident also claims to have seen the video and believes it to be authentic. According to the resident, gang members in the neighbourhood were angry at the video's sellers.
Friday, May 31 Another of Ford's staff resigns, special assistant Michael Prempeh, the sixth departure from his staff
Tuesday, June 4 Gawker reports that the person alleged to have had the cellphone video says it no longer exists and he will not sell it. An intermediary tells them that a copy might exist but has been taken out of Toronto for safe-keeping.
Thursday, June 13 As part of the "Project Traveller" pre-dawn raid (directed against two rival gangs engaged in drugs and firearms sales), police enter the home of Muhammad Khattak, one of the men photographed with Ford outside the suspected crackhouse, and remove a laptop and cellphones. Monir Kassim, who also appeared in the photograph, is arrested, as is Mohamed Said, who had originally attempted to sell the Ford video to the two Toronto Star reporters.
Police Chief Bill Blair refuses to confirm or deny if Rob Ford is under any investigation.
Friday, June 14 Hacker collective Anonymous announced via Twitter that it believes a copy of the alleged video exists in Alberta.
Wednesday, June 26 Christopher Fickel, a special assistant in Ford's office, resigns.
Ontario Attorney General John Gerretsen declines to name what laws are preventing Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair from indicating if Ford is or is not under investigation, when questioned by the press.
Friday, July 19 The search warrant for the arrest of Hanad Mohamed in Alberta is unsealed by the Ontario Superior Court, revealing that police seized four smartphones and a micro SD card connecting Mohamed to Nisar Hashimi, another person charged in connection with the shooting of Smith and Khattak. The contents of these devices will not be revealed until trial.
Friday, August 2 The Toronto Sun reports that Siad, who had orignally attempted to sell the video, had been stabbed while in custody by alleged gang members who blamed him for causing the Project Traveller raids. It also reports that Siad had offered to turn the video over to police in return for dropping charges against him
Thursday, August 15 Toronto Sun columnist Warren Kinsella claims that the crack video was obtained by police via the Project Traveller raids and has been viewed by "many, many Toronto defence lawyers."
Saturday, August 17 Toronto Police interview five former staffers in Rob Ford's office about Alessandro "Sandro" Lisi, a private driver for the mayor, who is being investigated due to his attempts to acquire the video. Both Lisi and Bruno Bellissimo, the inmate Ford had tried to visit in jail in March, were present at the Toronto Garrison Officer's Ball on February 22, an event where Ford was previously accused of being intoxicated.
Tuesday, October 1 Sandro Lisi and another man were arrested in a police raid in Etobicoke. Lisi is charged with possession of and trafficking in marijuana, possession of the proceeds of crime and conspiracy..
According to the Globe and Mail, "Toronto police have placed at the helm of this investigation one of the force’s most seasoned detectives, Detective Sergeant Gary Giroux of the homicide squad. Along with another prominent city investigator, Detective Joyce Schertzer, he is heading a team examining at least two individuals close to the mayor as part of that probe, according to several sources with knowledge of the police inquiries.
Det. Sgt. Giroux’s probe stems from Project Traveller, a year-long investigation that culminated in the June raids of a series of west-end Toronto high-rise apartments that police say served as the base for a drug-dealing gang known as the Dixon City Bloods. But what started as an investigation in one of the poorer neighbourhoods in the Toronto suburb of Etobicoke has extended into the area’s more affluent streets – and the mayor’s office. Five former staffers from Mr. Ford’s office have been interviewed by police, several sources have told The Globe, and one of the areas of interest for investigators, the sources say, is Mr. Lisi.
...When the marijuana-related charges against Mr. Lisi were announced in a press release Wednesday, it identified Det. Sgt. Giroux as the lead investigator – an official communication that left many in Toronto’s legal circles wondering why such a high-profile detective would be involved in a marijuana arrest, something considered less serious."
Alessandro Lisi, a 35-year-old who has no official role in the mayor’s office but sometimes chauffeured the mayor to events, was charged Wednesday with four criminal offences, including marijuana trafficking. But the arrest of Mr. Lisi – whom Mr. Ford called a “good guy” and “on the straight and narrow” ... “He’s a good guy. I don’t throw my friends under the bus,” he said before departing for a trip to Austin, Tex. Later, when asked whether he’s worried about police surveillance on Mr. Lisi potentially picking up his communication with him, the mayor shook his head and remained silent.
"jj2424" said Lefty hypocrites .If Trudope wants to smoke it then someone is going to sell it.
It's like driving a car then complaining about the "tar sands".
Tell that to the NDP who believe in prohibition-lite, or the Conservatives who have still got their heads so far embedded in the sand they think a bit more prohibition might work.
How did this become about Trudeau anyway?
Joining a long list of politicians who have confessed to trying pot, Ford smiled and casually said “oh yeah” when asked by a reporter Wednesday if he has ever partaken. Asked how frequently he had smoked, he said, “I’ve smoked a lot of it.”
A neighbour of Alexander Lisi says Mayor Rob Ford has been a regular visitor to the home the accused drug dealer’s house, as many as four times per week. ... Ford’s visits, going back to last winter, stopped after the Star published Lisi’s photo in mid-August, said Carol Peck, who lives two doors down from the Lisi residence.
Peck says she often saw the mayor park his Ford Escalade in front of Lisi’s Madrill St. house. Lisi would come out of the house and lean into the driver’s side window for a few minutes.
“There’s a side door on the Lisi residence and Lisi comes out, walks across, leans in, and back he goes,” Peck told the Star.
She said she mentioned her concerns about this behaviour with a neighbour, who told her that Lisi and Ford were good friends.
“But if you and I were good friends and you were coming to call on me, visit me ... would you not pull in to my driveway, knock on my door?”
Peck said the last time she saw Ford and Lisi together on her street was on Sept. 20, shortly before the mayor made an appearance at his Ford Fest barbecue at Etobicoke’s Centennial Park.
She said Ford was parked in Lisi’s driveway, next to the black Range Rover Lisi is known to drive. Peck, who was walking her dog at the time, says the two men got into their vehicles, drove to a nearby schoolyard, and then got out of their cars and walked around for several minutes.
“The mayor always says, ‘If you have a problem, call me and I’ll be around,’” said Peck, 75.
“So I said to a neighbour: Is there a problem in this neighbourhood? Because I see Rob here all the time.”
Lisi and Bahrami were identified Wednesday morning in a Toronto police statement released on behalf of homicide squad Det. Sgt. Gary Giroux, who has been leading a police investigation into attempts by Ford associates to get the cocaine video.
"jj2424" said Lefty hypocrites .If Trudope wants to smoke it then someone is going to sell it.
It's like driving a car then complaining about the "tar sands".
Typical right-wing failed logic:
Yes, because marijuana and crack are the same thing, and admitting to having smoked marijuana is the same as dealing it.
And a person who openly advocates for the decriminalization of marijuana is the exact same as a person with a tough anti-drug "law and order" agenda who secretly uses drugs and associates with crack dealers.
And anyone who wants responsible fossil fuel production and reduced reliance on fossil fuels, is a hypocrite unless they live in a cave like a hermit. Up next: if you wear clothes, you're a hypocrite if you oppose child labour in the garment industry.
"BeaverFever" said Lefty hypocrites .If Trudope wants to smoke it then someone is going to sell it.
It's like driving a car then complaining about the "tar sands".
Typical right-wing failed logic:
Yes, because marijuana and crack are the same thing, and admitting to having smoked marijuana is the same as dealing it.
And a person who openly advocates for the decriminalization of marijuana is the exact same as a person with a tough anti-drug "law and order" agenda who secretly uses drugs and associates with crack dealers.
And anyone who wants responsible fossil fuel production and reduced reliance on fossil fuels, is a hypocrite unless they live in a cave like a hermit. Talk about your logic fails. I think you'll find very few people with that attitude. It's the assholes who live ostentatiously, who leave a carbon footprint big enough for three families while beating us mere peons over the head about reducing our carbon footprints, that get shit on the most. If you're going to preach to me about living a certain lifestyle for "the good of the planet", well then you better goddam well be living that same lifestyle that you INSIST the rest of us should live. It's that simple.
So when a cancer-riddled smoker urges people to not smoke, we should just ignore the message because the speaker isn't living it? As parents, we say "Do as I say, not as I do" all the time. Suzuki's message may or may not be worth hearing, but his actions don't have any bearing on whether that message has validity or not.
I don't know where you get that Suzuki lives ostenatiously - he was the first Canadian to buy the Prius. Yes, he necessarily travels alot to spread his message, but unless you're going to try an change the world using carrier pigeons and smoke signals, how else do you acocmplish that?
Suzuki gets the irony as popularity increases By CanWest News Service October 12, 2007
..."The amount of greenhouse gas generated by flying is just intolerable to me," sighs Suzuki, sitting in his cramped, book-filled office of the David Suzuki Foundation, set up in memory of his father....
Yes, he's being buying carbon offsets, he says. But he's now decided that's no longer enough: Starting out his eighth decade, he's decided he needs to be more in sync with the planet's ability to absorb all his greenhouse gases, so this frequent flyer's long-haul flights must be drastically cut....
Suzuki will still be doing his speaking circuits in North America, but he's now "clustering" appearances in geographic areas, to cut down travel miles. And a Suzuki sighting in the flesh may be harder to come by in the future because he hopes to go digital.
"I'm saying now I'll consider any invitation to speak, but only by video conference," said Suzuki, who hastened to add he's the first Canadian to own a Prius, beating out then-environment minister David Anderson. "And that's had a very interesting effect. Nine out of 10 people immediately say, 'We're not interested.' "
The known timeline of Rob Ford video scandal (with help from Wikipedia)
Date Withheld
Toronto Police Service confirm that gang members under telephone wiretap during a Guns and Gangs investigation mention the existence of a video purpotedly showing Rob Ford smoking crack. Public and media are not advised until long after the story breaks in the press
March 2013
Two men are targeted in a shooting. One is killed, the other wounded. After the story of the allaeged Ford crack video breaks in May, the targeted men would be revealed to be 2 of the 3 men in a photo that is allegedly a screenshot of the 2012 video in which Ford smokes Crack cocaine. The deceased in Anthony Smith.
Rob Ford attempts to visit an inmate in the Toronto West Detention Centre, Bruno Bellissimo, after visiting hours. Though the visit would not become public until August, the newspaper calls Bellissimo a "new character" in the video scandal, who has been involved in drugs and attended secondary school with one of the residents of the Rexdale bungalow where Ford was photographed.
Wednesday, May 3
Toronto Star reporters Robyn Doolittle and Kevin Donovan meet with Mohamed "Soya" Siad, 27, an alleged member of the Dixon City Bloods, in the back seat of a car in the parking lot of 320 Dixon Road. Siad allows the reporters to view the Ford video on a cellphone three times and says he might sell it for a "six-figure price" so that he can move to Alberta, Canada
Thursday, May 16
Gawker and Star Break the story, releasing a photo of Ford with Anthony Smith (murdered in March 2013) and 2 others. The photo is allegedly a screenshot of a 2012 video in which Ford smokes crack cocaine
Friday, May 17
Ford denies video and claims that as a public figure, he poses for pictures with countless strangers. However, David Price, a long-time friend of Ford, informs Ford's Chief of Staff Mark Towhey of the location of the video at an apartment complex on Dixon Road in Etobicoke. Towhey advises Price to speak to the Toronto Police. Towhey contacts the police, who take a statement from Price. Radio station Newstalk 1010 reports that it was offered the alleged video for $20,000.
Tuesday, May 21
A man is shot, requiring hospitalization, at a 17th floor apartment in the Dixon Road apartment complex and the home where the photo of Rob Ford was taken is the target of a home invasion. The home is located several hundred metres from the Dixon Road apartment complex. One resident of the home was an acquaintance of Ford from high school, whose mother owns the house. Area Residents have complained previously of a steady stream of traffic between the complex and the home, prompting a fence to be erected to block traffic. Two residents of the house have criminal records, one for minor thefts, one for trafficking cocaine. Maclean's later identified the victims of the home invasion as Fabio Basso, Ford's long-time friend, and Basso's girlfriend. Resident Elena Basso tells Star reporters at her house that “Rob Ford’s the greatest mayor ever. You guys are scavengers.”
Thursday, May 23
Ford fires his chief of staff, Mark Towhey. Towhey is escorted out of City Hall by security. Several reports state that Towhey was fired for telling Ford to get help at a rehab centre
Friday, May 24
Hanad Mohamed, who is alleged to have appeared in the video, is arrested in Fort McMurray, Alberta for the March murder of Anthony Smith, who appeared in the photo with Ford.
Monday, May 27
Ford's press secretary and deputy press secretary resign and leave City Hall before Ford arrives
Tuesday, May 28 The Toronto Sun reports that it also was offered the alleged video but declined
Thursday, May 30
Two more of Ford's staff resign, Brian Johnston, a policy advisor and council relations specialist, and Kia Nejatian, an executive assistant
A National Post reporter visits the apartment in the Dixon Road complex where the video was alleged to be stored and speaks to the resident. The resident describes how his apartment was previously rented by a drug dealer. The resident also claims to have seen the video and believes it to be authentic. According to the resident, gang members in the neighbourhood were angry at the video's sellers.
Friday, May 31
Another of Ford's staff resigns, special assistant Michael Prempeh, the sixth departure from his staff
Tuesday, June 4
Gawker reports that the person alleged to have had the cellphone video says it no longer exists and he will not sell it. An intermediary tells them that a copy might exist but has been taken out of Toronto for safe-keeping.
Thursday, June 13
As part of the "Project Traveller" pre-dawn raid (directed against two rival gangs engaged in drugs and firearms sales), police enter the home of Muhammad Khattak, one of the men photographed with Ford outside the suspected crackhouse, and remove a laptop and cellphones. Monir Kassim, who also appeared in the photograph, is arrested, as is Mohamed Said, who had originally attempted to sell the Ford video to the two Toronto Star reporters.
Police Chief Bill Blair refuses to confirm or deny if Rob Ford is under any investigation.
Friday, June 14
Hacker collective Anonymous announced via Twitter that it believes a copy of the alleged video exists in Alberta.
Wednesday, June 26
Christopher Fickel, a special assistant in Ford's office, resigns.
Ontario Attorney General John Gerretsen declines to name what laws are preventing Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair from indicating if Ford is or is not under investigation, when questioned by the press.
Friday, July 19
The search warrant for the arrest of Hanad Mohamed in Alberta is unsealed by the Ontario Superior Court, revealing that police seized four smartphones and a micro SD card connecting Mohamed to Nisar Hashimi, another person charged in connection with the shooting of Smith and Khattak. The contents of these devices will not be revealed until trial.
Friday, August 2
The Toronto Sun reports that Siad, who had orignally attempted to sell the video, had been stabbed while in custody by alleged gang members who blamed him for causing the Project Traveller raids. It also reports that Siad had offered to turn the video over to police in return for dropping charges against him
Thursday, August 15
Toronto Sun columnist Warren Kinsella claims that the crack video was obtained by police via the Project Traveller raids and has been viewed by "many, many Toronto defence lawyers."
Saturday, August 17
Toronto Police interview five former staffers in Rob Ford's office about Alessandro "Sandro" Lisi, a private driver for the mayor, who is being investigated due to his attempts to acquire the video. Both Lisi and Bruno Bellissimo, the inmate Ford had tried to visit in jail in March, were present at the Toronto Garrison Officer's Ball on February 22, an event where Ford was previously accused of being intoxicated.
Tuesday, October 1
Sandro Lisi and another man were arrested in a police raid in Etobicoke. Lisi is charged with possession of and trafficking in marijuana, possession of the proceeds of crime and conspiracy..
According to the Globe and Mail, "Toronto police have placed at the helm of this investigation one of the force’s most seasoned detectives, Detective Sergeant Gary Giroux of the homicide squad. Along with another prominent city investigator, Detective Joyce Schertzer, he is heading a team examining at least two individuals close to the mayor as part of that probe, according to several sources with knowledge of the police inquiries.
Det. Sgt. Giroux’s probe stems from Project Traveller, a year-long investigation that culminated in the June raids of a series of west-end Toronto high-rise apartments that police say served as the base for a drug-dealing gang known as the Dixon City Bloods. But what started as an investigation in one of the poorer neighbourhoods in the Toronto suburb of Etobicoke has extended into the area’s more affluent streets – and the mayor’s office. Five former staffers from Mr. Ford’s office have been interviewed by police, several sources have told The Globe, and one of the areas of interest for investigators, the sources say, is Mr. Lisi.
...When the marijuana-related charges against Mr. Lisi were announced in a press release Wednesday, it identified Det. Sgt. Giroux as the lead investigator – an official communication that left many in Toronto’s legal circles wondering why such a high-profile detective would be involved in a marijuana arrest, something considered less serious."
...
“He’s a good guy. I don’t throw my friends under the bus,” he said before departing for a trip to Austin, Tex. Later, when asked whether he’s worried about police surveillance on Mr. Lisi potentially picking up his communication with him, the mayor shook his head and remained silent.
It's like driving a car then complaining about the "tar sands".
Lefty hypocrites .If Trudope wants to smoke it then someone is going to sell it.
It's like driving a car then complaining about the "tar sands".
Tell that to the NDP who believe in prohibition-lite, or the Conservatives who have still got their heads so far embedded in the sand they think a bit more prohibition might work.
How did this become about Trudeau anyway?
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2 ... cking.html
...
Ford’s visits, going back to last winter, stopped after the Star published Lisi’s photo in mid-August, said Carol Peck, who lives two doors down from the Lisi residence.
Peck says she often saw the mayor park his Ford Escalade in front of Lisi’s Madrill St. house. Lisi would come out of the house and lean into the driver’s side window for a few minutes.
“There’s a side door on the Lisi residence and Lisi comes out, walks across, leans in, and back he goes,” Peck told the Star.
She said she mentioned her concerns about this behaviour with a neighbour, who told her that Lisi and Ford were good friends.
“But if you and I were good friends and you were coming to call on me, visit me ... would you not pull in to my driveway, knock on my door?”
Peck said the last time she saw Ford and Lisi together on her street was on Sept. 20, shortly before the mayor made an appearance at his Ford Fest barbecue at Etobicoke’s Centennial Park.
She said Ford was parked in Lisi’s driveway, next to the black Range Rover Lisi is known to drive. Peck, who was walking her dog at the time, says the two men got into their vehicles, drove to a nearby schoolyard, and then got out of their cars and walked around for several minutes.
“The mayor always says, ‘If you have a problem, call me and I’ll be around,’” said Peck, 75.
“So I said to a neighbour: Is there a problem in this neighbourhood? Because I see Rob here all the time.”
Lisi and Bahrami were identified Wednesday morning in a Toronto police statement released on behalf of homicide squad Det. Sgt. Gary Giroux, who has been leading a police investigation into attempts by Ford associates to get the cocaine video.
Lefty hypocrites .If Trudope wants to smoke it then someone is going to sell it.
It's like driving a car then complaining about the "tar sands".
Typical right-wing failed logic:
Yes, because marijuana and crack are the same thing, and admitting to having smoked marijuana is the same as dealing it.
And a person who openly advocates for the decriminalization of marijuana is the exact same as a person with a tough anti-drug "law and order" agenda who secretly uses drugs and associates with crack dealers.
And anyone who wants responsible fossil fuel production and reduced reliance on fossil fuels, is a hypocrite unless they live in a cave like a hermit. Up next: if you wear clothes, you're a hypocrite if you oppose child labour in the garment industry.
Lefty hypocrites .If Trudope wants to smoke it then someone is going to sell it.
It's like driving a car then complaining about the "tar sands".
Typical right-wing failed logic:
Yes, because marijuana and crack are the same thing, and admitting to having smoked marijuana is the same as dealing it.
And a person who openly advocates for the decriminalization of marijuana is the exact same as a person with a tough anti-drug "law and order" agenda who secretly uses drugs and associates with crack dealers.
And anyone who wants responsible fossil fuel production and reduced reliance on fossil fuels, is a hypocrite unless they live in a cave like a hermit.
Talk about your logic fails. I think you'll find very few people with that attitude.
It's the assholes who live ostentatiously, who leave a carbon footprint big enough for three families while beating us mere peons over the head about reducing our carbon footprints, that get shit on the most.
If you're going to preach to me about living a certain lifestyle for "the good of the planet", well then you better goddam well be living that same lifestyle that you INSIST the rest of us should live. It's that simple.
By CanWest News Service October 12, 2007
..."The amount of greenhouse gas generated by flying is just intolerable to me," sighs Suzuki, sitting in his cramped, book-filled office of the David Suzuki Foundation, set up in memory of his father....
Yes, he's being buying carbon offsets, he says. But he's now decided that's no longer enough: Starting out his eighth decade, he's decided he needs to be more in sync with the planet's ability to absorb all his greenhouse gases, so this frequent flyer's long-haul flights must be drastically cut....
Suzuki will still be doing his speaking circuits in North America, but he's now "clustering" appearances in geographic areas, to cut down travel miles. And a Suzuki sighting in the flesh may be harder to come by in the future because he hopes to go digital.
"I'm saying now I'll consider any invitation to speak, but only by video conference," said Suzuki, who hastened to add he's the first Canadian to own a Prius, beating out then-environment minister David Anderson. "And that's had a very interesting effect. Nine out of 10 people immediately say, 'We're not interested.' "