Chretien bemoans Canada's 'lost foreign stature'

I wonder if Chetien can convince Iggy to forget all the flattering talk about the US and writing in 'True Patriot Love' long enough to cuddle up to Chairman Mao's bully boys? It seems like his morality can be bought and sold so this should be an easy stretch.

Hmm, maybe he's pissed cause the kickbacks stopped.

It's ridiculous that our relations with the world's SECOND largest economy is crap.

Chretien is definitely right that Harper should have worked harder at his relations with China and Africa, but our loss of stature occurred slowly over the past three decades, as defence spending and foreign aid bottomed out. Chretien is guilty for some of that blame (as well as Mulroney and Trudeau before him).

He's not worth commenting on, so I won't.

I'm not willing to ignore human rights violations or their out of control pollution just so we can get cheap goods.
Everyone since Richard Nixon has been preaching the engagement policy would encourage China to move to a more humane, representative nature but none of that has happened. China steams on and their PR army blurrs the hard edges.

It just goes to show where his head was all these years. Very telling.

See, that's where you're wrong, engagement has worked. Nixon and Trudeau may have called for engagement, but that was more a reaction to create a counterweight to the USSR (Nixon especially). I would argue that it wasn't until the mid-90s when Clinton and other really tried to deal with China that engagement really occurred.

Look at two mass protests in China's recent history (1989 -Tiananmen Square and 2008 - Tibet). The government's reactions and the after effects were very different. In 1989, they called out tanks and killed thousands and arrested/imprisoned thousands more. Last year, depending on the news source, between 5 and 400 (depending on whether you believe pro-PRC news sources or pro-Dalai Lama sources) died. Most Western news services put the toll at less than a 100. While that's still a lot of casualties, it's a far cry from the 7,000 NATO estimated died in Tiananmen Square. There weren't any arms embargoes or cancellation of state visits by leaders last year were there?

A quick look at China does show that it is changing for the better.

Once again, I'll say that we are hypocrites if we criticize China for industrializing in exactly the same manner we did 50 years ago. Millions have had their economic situation improved vastly since Tiananmen Square and who knows, someday if the Chinese population decides that they want political change, then that will come too. but neither you nor I have a right to force democracy on them.

Considering all china produces is crap anyways, I dont care. Infact I wish they would get pissed with us and stop sending us their crap.

China has produced prosperity without accountability and freedom. We still should be wary. It remains an autocratic dictatorship.

They need us to buy their stuff and we want to sell them stuff but Chretien just tossed out any human rights issues and basically fawned over them.

Engagement with a dictatorship should be on our terms, not theirs. Chretien got this one wrong and like I say, very telling.

Considering all china produces is crap anyways, I dont care. Infact I wish they would get pissed with us and stop sending us their crap.

Take a look at your PC or under the hood of your car and get back to me...

China's two repressions were different because WHAT!? They were still repressions! How the hell can you defend them for a gentler repression of Tibet? They know that there is sensitivity to the Dalai Lama in the west, so they tread carefully. They are still a totalitarian state, and in that sense, they are not forgivable! AT ALL!

I agree that we have to be careful, but since engagement occurred, there haven't been any massacres ala Tiananmnen or a new 'Great Leap Forward' has there. Small steps maybe, but positive ones nonetheless. If we just ignore them, then we wind Burma times 100.

I also agree. We should chat with them but lets not fawn, lets be frank with them.
Chretien just fawned.

Where did I say I forgave them?

I basically said that because of the huge trade surpluses which basically underwrite their entire economy (aka engagement), they know there are repercussions to such incidents, which makes their reactions much more tempered than they were in the past.

That is progress, whether or not you agree with it.