[Newsbot]

Title: Ontario austerity report promises to be controversial | CTV Toronto
Category: Provincial Politics
Posted By: OnTheIce
Date: 2012-02-15 06:26:45
Canadian

[martin14]

Better a quick cut than a long slow bleed, complete with death throes.

read Greece.

[eureka]

Is Drummond bucking for a position with the IMF so that he can help that organisation in its job of screwing up the economies of countries that need help.

[Thanos]

Austerity equals failure wherever it is attempted. Ontario's just going to join places like Britain by letting austerity mire itself into near-permanent stagnation. I knew that McSquinty wasn't all that bright but I never thought that he'd be this stupid.

[sandorski]

Thanos Thanos:

Austerity equals failure wherever it is attempted. Ontario's just going to join places like Britain by letting austerity mire itself into near-permanent stagnation. I knew that McSquinty wasn't all that bright but I never thought that he'd be this stupid.

Government Fiscal Austerity when the Economy is fine isn't too disruptive. When the Economy is crap or very weak, it's foolish.

[Thanos]

I have no problems with a period of spending caps, but to-the-bone cutting is just plain ridiculous. I remember what happened in Alberta in the Klein years, where hosptials got blown up and idiots showed up to cheer for it, and the only meaningful accomplishment was that government-run liquor stores got privatized. Electrical and fuel gas utilities got deregulated, infrastructure spending was devastated, and everyone living here got royally hosed when the prices charged by the vaunted "free market" turned out to be massively higher than any of the taxes the government charged to maintain a fully-public system ever were. Ditto with the Chretien years, where too many federal spending cuts were totally illusory as funding responsibilities were dropped onto the provinces whilst Ottawa still forced them to provide services but wouldn't allow them to institute management or systemic reforms.

Austerity, and most of the rest of what're now considered to be the bedrock philosophies of conservative economic policies, are nothing but vicious profiteering lies. It leaves devastation behind it and serves the best interests of no one, except for the usual suspects at the top of the heap of course.

[andyt]

Thanos Thanos:

Austerity equals failure wherever it is attempted. Ontario's just going to join places like Britain by letting austerity mire itself into near-permanent stagnation. I knew that McSquinty wasn't all that bright but I never thought that he'd be this stupid.

Yes, but at the same time, Ontario can't just keep piling on debt. The future isn't looking too rosy for them. The trick is to make smart cuts, and as Drummond says himself, the sorts of cuts that Harris made - across the board - are devastating. But things like govt pay and pensions seems like a good idea, and the big one, health care he also seems to have some good ideas - like community care to replace expensive hospital care where possible. I'm all for belt tightening, I just think the people with the most holes left in their belts should do the most tightening, not those who are barely hanging in.

And then of course there's taxes - Drummond was precluded from looking at raising them, so his cut recommendations now amount to deeper cuts than the Harris years. WTF is this fear of taxes - if you want the services you've got to pay for them.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

A good place to start that doens't involve fucking the taxpayer even more would be to start charging US customers market rates for hydro instead of selling it to them dirt cheap and forcing Ontarians to pick up the slack.
IIRC Ontarians pay almost twice as much than the states that buy it from us.
Something insanely wrong with that picture.
End the subsidies(even just temporarily) to technology that is currently adding only fractional amounts of power to Ontario's overall power generation, 75% of which is already CO2 free. Either that or let the Americans buying our hydro subsidize the wind and solar aspects.
Beyond that, I'd like to see the shmucks at Queen's Park take a 5% pay cut, even if it winds up being more symbolic than anything else.
Slap a fat tax on CO2 unfriendly consumer products ie:Hummers and their ilk, private aircraft, large or high powered watercraft, homes over a certain square footage.
Some years back there was also mention of an idea involving "health credits". The idea was everyone got a refund based on how much they used the health care system. You start with x number of credits and everytime you access the health care system, your credits go down. "Credits" being a refundable tax credit.
If implemented properly and the maximum kept reasonable**, I think the province could actually save money on this. God knows I've known enough people that clog up the system going to the emergency for stupid shit.

**By reasonable, I mean high enough to encourage people not to waste health professionals' time but low enough so that people won't be stupid about not going to the doctor.

Someone needs to start thinking outside the box a bit cuz the same ol' same ol' just ain't cuttin' it.

[saturn_656]

andyt andyt:

And then of course there's taxes - Drummond was precluded from looking at raising them, so his cut recommendations now amount to deeper cuts than the Harris years. WTF is this fear of taxes - if you want the services you've got to pay for them.

Fear? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that under Dalton the provincial government is digging deeper and deeper in our pockets every year.

The big three "screw you's" from Dad to the Ontario taxpayer IMO are:

Health Premium (alone the biggest tax increase in recent history)
HST
Hydro rates which have near doubled in the last five years. Made even worse by an extra 8% tax thanks to the above mentioned HST.

Premier Dad has to find ways to control costs that don't always involve screwing the middle class taxpayer (which is one of the few things he is adept at).

[OnTheIce]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

andyt andyt:

And then of course there's taxes - Drummond was precluded from looking at raising them, so his cut recommendations now amount to deeper cuts than the Harris years. WTF is this fear of taxes - if you want the services you've got to pay for them.

Fear? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that under Dalton the provincial government is digging deeper and deeper in our pockets every year.

The big three "screw you's" from Dad to the Ontario taxpayer IMO are:

Health Premium (alone the biggest tax increase in recent history)
HST
Hydro rates which have near doubled in the last five years. Made even worse by an extra 8% tax thanks to the above mentioned HST.

Premier Dad has to find ways to control costs that don't always involve screwing the middle class taxpayer (which is one of the few things he is adept at).

Ontario has nobody to blame by themselves. Of course we fear taxes in this Province right now, Dalton has been taking and taking since he got in the big chair and has done nothing but mismanage the money.

They voted in this asshole 3 times and he's screwed us in the ass, prison style, no lube.

[DrCaleb]

Thanos Thanos:

I have no problems with a period of spending caps, but to-the-bone cutting is just plain ridiculous. I remember what happened in Alberta in the Klein years, where hosptials got blown up and idiots showed up to cheer for it, and the only meaningful accomplishment was that government-run liquor stores got privatized. Electrical and fuel gas utilities got deregulated, infrastructure spending was devastated, and everyone living here got royally hosed when the prices charged by the vaunted "free market" turned out to be massively higher than any of the taxes the government charged to maintain a fully-public system ever were. Ditto with the Chretien years, where too many federal spending cuts were totally illusory as funding responsibilities were dropped onto the provinces whilst Ottawa still forced them to provide services but wouldn't allow them to institute management or systemic reforms.

Austerity, and most of the rest of what're now considered to be the bedrock philosophies of conservative economic policies, are nothing but vicious profiteering lies. It leaves devastation behind it and serves the best interests of no one, except for the usual suspects at the top of the heap of course.

The Klien years may have sucked; but we still have some savings left, we have no debt, we don't pay sales tax or healthcare premiums and our personal income taxes are the lowest in North America outside of anywhere except possibly Alaska.

But I agree that gas/electric deregulation was a major farce that still is a sad echo of what what was promised.

[andyt]

You should be happy with how Ontario's going. Canada's rust belt, exactly because of the sort of right wing policies you espouse. It's just good business sense. And even if you kept industry by workers taking huge paycuts, what will that do to your tax base? You 1 percenters are going to have to step up one way or the other.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

You should be happy with how Ontario's going. Canada's rust belt, exactly because of the sort of right wing policies you espouse. It's just good business sense. And even if you kept industry by workers taking huge paycuts, what will that do to your tax base? You 1 percenters are going to have to step up one way or the other.

0:

Triplefacepalm.jpg [ 89.15 KiB | Viewed 447 times ]

[BeaverFever]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

The Klien years may have sucked; but we still have some savings left, we have no debt, we don't pay sales tax or healthcare premiums and our personal income taxes are the lowest in North America outside of anywhere except possibly Alaska.

But I agree that gas/electric deregulation was a major farce that still is a sad echo of what what was promised.

Some headlines from the past couple of years for you:

Alberta families pay most in Canada for health, education, and utilities
$340 fee to call an ambulance??? WTF??? In Ontario, it's $45!

Alberta home to highest booze prices in Canada

And some historical trending for you:
Alberta ranks fourth for highest tuition fees (2007)
Alberta tuition third highest in country: StatsCan (2009)
Alberta student fees tops in country: StatsCan (2011)

[andyt]

Alta is burning thru it's oil money to keep people happy. Alta has 15 billion in it's heritage fund. Norway, with far less oil has 580 billion. That's 'cause they pay as they go. They don't mind paying (high taxes) and still have one of the highest disposable incomes. Go figure.