[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

After WWII, millions Germans were booted out of the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia.

There's also that western one-third of Poland that was German territory for centuries, that the allies figured would make up for the loss of eastern Poland to the Russians. This involved uprooting tens of millions. The Poles are still a little antsy over this.

[Zipperfish]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

Actually, the UN created Israel. On Arab land.

A commonly held fallacy. Israel declared its own independence. The UN recognized it after the fact. Also the land was not 'given' to the Jews. They bought it from the Arab landowners and developed it. The Palestinian Arabs who 'fled' did so because they thought their armies were going to crush the Jews in a matter of days, driving them into the sea, and then they'd be able to return and scoop up the orchards and farms that the Jews had built.

Earlier, someone had made a comment about why Arabs didn't take in the 'Palestinians'. Some did and they had their countries destabilised by them. Lebanon and Jordan(which is the de facto Palestinian Arab state) both had their own troubles with them, that are well documented.

According to Wiki the UN Partition Plan for Palestine was in November 1947, and Israel declared sovereignty in May 1948.

I don't think buying the land means you buy the country though. Israel may have declared sovereignty, but it was not accepted by the Palestinians who lived there. Nor was the UN declaration. Violence ensued, the Arabs lost. Contrary to your claim, many Palestinians were forced from their homes. Many of the people who were forced from their homes (and their descendants) have lived as refugees ever since. It may convenient to point fingers at other Arab countries, but why would you not hold Israel to the same standard to accept refugees?

Frankly, neither side is going anywhere, and short of genocide, they are going to have to learn to live next to each other, and neither side has put much effort into that at all--Palestinians with their constant insurgencies and Israel with their constant land grabs. They are both in exactly the situation they deserve. In my opinion anyways.

[ShepherdsDog]

Israel wasn't established by the UN in 1947. At the time, the territory was still the British mandate. Israel declared their independence the day before the mandate was to end in 1948. They knew that as soon as the Mandate ended, the arab armies would invade and try and destroy the new Jewish state. They determined what they were to be, not the UN, which would have created a patch work state, minus Jerusalem.

[Scape]

Palestine was a failed state to begin with. The UK begged the UN to take it off its hands. It was a mess well before 1948. At what point to the people of Palestine take ownership for their own hand in their fate? Why does the state of Israel, surrounded by sworn enemies, should even consider taking in the people of Palestine who would want nothing better then to see every Jew dead even if it means killing themselves in the process?

[ShepherdsDog]

The Arab Israelis are quite happy to remain Israelis, and when polled, the overwhelming majority said they would keep their Israeli citizenship, even if a Palestinian state was created. Gee... I wonder if the same could be said of Jews in a Palestinian state.

[Zipperfish]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

The Arab Israelis are quite happy to remain Israelis, and when polled, the overwhelming majority said they would keep their Israeli citizenship, even if a Palestinian state was created. Gee... I wonder if the same could be said of Jews in a Palestinian state.

You are a man wise in foreign affairs, and much traveled from what I can gather. So just out of interest--and with no hidden agenda on my part--what would you do if you called the shots in Israel?

[ShepherdsDog]

Round up the black hats, settlers and Hamas supporters and deport them. They are the biggest stumbling blocks for true peace, yet they are a small minority. The fact that Arab Israelis are happy members of Israeli society, serving in the IDF(a fact that some forget or are ignorant of,) and every other aspect of Israeli society, proves that Israel can easily exist as multi cultural state.

[Zipperfish]

Scape Scape:

Palestine was a failed state to begin with. The UK begged the UN to take it off its hands. It was a mess well before 1948. At what point to the people of Palestine take ownership for their own hand in their fate? Why does the state of Israel, surrounded by sworn enemies, should even consider taking in the people of Palestine who would want nothing better then to see every Jew dead even if it means killing themselves in the process?

I happen to agree with you on that point. If I were Palestine, I'd do a Ghandi. Military force--terrorism or otherwise--has failed abjectly every time and made life far worse for them. And yet they continue to fight. What is that definition of insanity--doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

Israel's strategy has been to make life as uncomfortable as possible for the Palestinians--iron fist, blockades, incursions, deprivation, Israeli settlements, punishment, walls, humiliation, etc.

The same two-act play again and again. So I accept your statement but add: When will Israel take ownership of their current relationship with Palestinians?

[Zipperfish]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Round up the black hats, settlers and Hamas supporters and deport them. They are the biggest stumbling blocks for true peace, yet they are a small minority. The fact that Arab Israelis are happy members of Israeli society, serving in the IDF(a fact that some forget or are ignorant of,) and every other aspect of Israeli society, proves that Israel can easily exist as multi cultural state.

Ah! We have a point of agreement!

[martin14]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

The same two-act play again and again. So I accept your statement but add: When will Israel take ownership of their current relationship with Palestinians?

I will grant this is old information,
but does anyone think Abbas is doing anything different ?


http://www.fact-index.com/y/ya/yasser_arafat.html

$1:

Personal wealth
Arafat appears in the business magazine Forbes' annual list of the wealthiest "Kings, Queens and Despots". They estimate his wealth as being "at least $300 million", placing Arafat sixth on the list in 2003. [1] [1] However, Forbes did not indicate its source for this information.

In August 2002, Israeli Military Intelligence Chief Aharon Ze'evi estimated Arafat's personal wealth to be $1.3 billion. [1]

Financial irregularities

The International Monetary Fund conducted an audit of the Palestinian Authority which stated that Arafat diverted $900 million in public funds to a special bank account he controlled. Other estimates range between $1 Billion and $3 Billion. Arafat's wife, Suha, is estimated to receive a stipend of $100,000 each month. According to Forbes, the new PA Finance Minister, Salam Fayyad, is cleaning up PA finances, cutting off much of Arafat's cash flow. [1] [1] [1]

Now that is obscene, and that comes from one of the stronger capitalists
on this forum.



As long as the Palestinians are led by people like this, nothing will change.
As long as the Palestinians call for the destruction of Israel, nothing will change.
As long as other Arab countries continue to support 'right of return', instead of accepting the reality, nothing will change.
As long as the Palestinians continue to use violence, nothing will change.

The better question is : When will Israel the Palestinians take ownership of their
current relationship with Palestinians the Israelis ?

[GreenTiger]

martin14 martin14:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

The same two-act play again and again. So I accept your statement but add: When will Israel take ownership of their current relationship with Palestinians?

I will grant this is old information,
but does anyone think Abbas is doing anything different ?


http://www.fact-index.com/y/ya/yasser_arafat.html

$1:

Personal wealth
Arafat appears in the business magazine Forbes' annual list of the wealthiest "Kings, Queens and Despots". They estimate his wealth as being "at least $300 million", placing Arafat sixth on the list in 2003. [1] [1] However, Forbes did not indicate its source for this information.

In August 2002, Israeli Military Intelligence Chief Aharon Ze'evi estimated Arafat's personal wealth to be $1.3 billion. [1]

Financial irregularities

The International Monetary Fund conducted an audit of the Palestinian Authority which stated that Arafat diverted $900 million in public funds to a special bank account he controlled. Other estimates range between $1 Billion and $3 Billion. Arafat's wife, Suha, is estimated to receive a stipend of $100,000 each month. According to Forbes, the new PA Finance Minister, Salam Fayyad, is cleaning up PA finances, cutting off much of Arafat's cash flow. [1] [1] [1]

Now that is obscene, and that comes from one of the stronger capitalists
on this forum.



As long as the Palestinians are led by people like this, nothing will change.
As long as the Palestinians call for the destruction of Israel, nothing will change.
As long as other Arab countries continue to support 'right of return', instead of accepting the reality, nothing will change.
As long as the Palestinians continue to use violence, nothing will change.

The better question is : When will Israel the Palestinians take ownership of their
current relationship with Palestinians the Israelis ?

You've got it right. All the peace plans that they are talking about are doomed until people do the above things that you listed.

[Gunnair]

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

martin14 martin14:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

The same two-act play again and again. So I accept your statement but add: When will Israel take ownership of their current relationship with Palestinians?

I will grant this is old information,
but does anyone think Abbas is doing anything different ?


http://www.fact-index.com/y/ya/yasser_arafat.html

$1:

Personal wealth
Arafat appears in the business magazine Forbes' annual list of the wealthiest "Kings, Queens and Despots". They estimate his wealth as being "at least $300 million", placing Arafat sixth on the list in 2003. [1] [1] However, Forbes did not indicate its source for this information.

In August 2002, Israeli Military Intelligence Chief Aharon Ze'evi estimated Arafat's personal wealth to be $1.3 billion. [1]

Financial irregularities

The International Monetary Fund conducted an audit of the Palestinian Authority which stated that Arafat diverted $900 million in public funds to a special bank account he controlled. Other estimates range between $1 Billion and $3 Billion. Arafat's wife, Suha, is estimated to receive a stipend of $100,000 each month. According to Forbes, the new PA Finance Minister, Salam Fayyad, is cleaning up PA finances, cutting off much of Arafat's cash flow. [1] [1] [1]

Now that is obscene, and that comes from one of the stronger capitalists
on this forum.



As long as the Palestinians are led by people like this, nothing will change.
As long as the Palestinians call for the destruction of Israel, nothing will change.
As long as other Arab countries continue to support 'right of return', instead of accepting the reality, nothing will change.
As long as the Palestinians continue to use violence, nothing will change.

The better question is : When will Israel the Palestinians take ownership of their
current relationship with Palestinians the Israelis ?

You've got it right. All the peace plans that they are talking about are doomed until people do the above things that you listed.

Yeah. There's only one side of this problem that needs to change.

[Bacardi4206]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Yeah. There's only one side of this problem that needs to change.

Israel is part of the problem, however they atleast try. They have been fighting for there own existance ever since they were given the land. Hell, they even got as much women soldiers as they do males to defend there borders. Something no other military has been able to do or even dares to do.

As long as there citizens are still being threatened by some muslim country, take Iran for instance issuing death threats against not only there country but the destruction of every Jewish citizen in it. As well as Palestinian terrorists/militia constantly harrassing them. We are lucky as they have to travel across the glove past our security checks and immigration policies to cause havoc here. In which we have our terrorists problems that are menocing and represent a great threat to citizens of any western nation. For Israel, that is a everyday fact as they get the honor of living right beside nations that generally create these fanatics.

I saw a LL video yesterday of some boat raid, I believe it was a protesting/activist boat. I am assuming Israel responded against something, however they sent in Commando's to calm the situation and as they repelled from a rope from a chopper. They were greated by dozens of these guys with metal bars all beating them 1 by one as they grappled down. Throwing them off, etc. This eventually led to a incident where 10 or so of these protestors were shot. However from the video, they very much provoked it. A lot of those commandos were badly injured. Being beaten constantly by several guys each with metal bars. How could you deal with that as a Israel Soldier when everyday could most likely be your last as you are constanly met by groups of people who would do anything to kill you.

[EyeBrock]

We discussed all this safety/self- defence stuff about 5 pages back bacardi.

Still, I have to ask the question;

Why would you put a small squad of Israeli soldiers on a ship filled with 600 people who are known to hate Israel?

Israel had a choice here, board the ship or not board it. Their soldiers would not have been at risk if they had not boarded this ship in international water, full stop.

They didn't choose wisely, they put their own guys at unnecessary risk and put their whole country at unnecessary risk.

This is really bad risk-management on a global level.

[commanderkai]

The issue is Eyebrock, there was no wise choice. Israel is commonly put in lose-lose situations like this. No matter what they did, ranging from ignoring the ship and letting it bypass the blockade, to sinking it, would have been bad PR all around. In this case, Israel took the first blows, putting the soldiers at risk to have some justification against both present and future action.