[Newsbot]

<strong>Title: </strong> <a href="/link.php?id=32266" target="_blank">Antique search planes to be replaced in 2014 </a> (click to view)

<strong>Category:</strong> <a href="/news/topic/14-misc-cdn" target="_blank">Misc CDN</a>
<strong>Posted By: </strong> <a href="/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&username=Hyack" target="_blank">Hyack</a>
<strong>Date: </strong> 2008-04-13 14:48:12
<strong>Canadian</strong>

[bootlegga]

I guess thought it was Canada First not Afghanistan first. Everything Harper has bought so far (JSS, C17s, C-130Js, armoured trucks and eventually Chinooks) does more to expand our international capabilities first and foremost. If you want to build up expeditionary capability fine, but don't call your plan Canada First.

[Loader]

I've said it before, why is the military responsible for Search and Rescue? It ties up a lot of resources without being a deployable asset. I could see it if our SAR Techs were allowed to do combat SAR but their not. So we have modern helicopters, older but still capable Hercules aircraft, and highly trained SAR Techs, many with a combat arms background that can't be deployed into a theatre. What a waste.

[sasquatch2]

Loader

$1:

I've said it before, why is the military responsible for Search and Rescue? It ties up a lot of resources without being a deployable asset. I could see it if our SAR Techs were allowed to do combat SAR but their not. So we have modern helicopters, older but still capable Hercules aircraft, and highly trained SAR Techs, many with a combat arms background that can't be deployed into a theatre. What a waste.

It's all political! In the first place when this developed the military had a monopoly on the hardware and the trained personnel. That necessity has long since passed. It is now just a sneaky way to bleed off financing from the military rather than have a separate budget.

[SigPig]

Loader Loader:

I've said it before, why is the military responsible for Search and Rescue? It ties up a lot of resources without being a deployable asset. I could see it if our SAR Techs were allowed to do combat SAR but their not. So we have modern helicopters, older but still capable Hercules aircraft, and highly trained SAR Techs, many with a combat arms background that can't be deployed into a theatre. What a waste.

Actually, the Hercs that are assigned to SAR are so far gone that they are no longer capable of airlift. They are E models that need to be replaced ASAP with J's or they won't even be able to perform SAR.

[SigPig]

bootlegga bootlegga:

I guess thought it was Canada First not Afghanistan first. Everything Harper has bought so far (JSS, C17s, C-130Js, armoured trucks and eventually Chinooks) does more to expand our international capabilities first and foremost. If you want to build up expeditionary capability fine, but don't call your plan Canada First.

To be fair, the C-130's, the JSS, and the Chinooks are all useful here at home. The JSS are needed for ANY mission the Navy goes on whehter its in the Persian Gulf or the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The C-130's will allow the oldest of our Hercs to be retired that are currently being used for SAR. The plan for the chinooks is also to use them in a secondary SAR role here in Canada. So in a huge way it still is very much benefiting Canada.

[meaden24]

Canada first doesn't refer where the assests are used, it's where the financial benefits are. I was pretty sure everyone in Canada could understand that, guess not though.

[bootlegga]

SigPig SigPig:

bootlegga bootlegga:

I guess thought it was Canada First not Afghanistan first. Everything Harper has bought so far (JSS, C17s, C-130Js, armoured trucks and eventually Chinooks) does more to expand our international capabilities first and foremost. If you want to build up expeditionary capability fine, but don't call your plan Canada First.

To be fair, the C-130's, the JSS, and the Chinooks are all useful here at home. The JSS are needed for ANY mission the Navy goes on whehter its in the Persian Gulf or the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The C-130's will allow the oldest of our Hercs to be retired that are currently being used for SAR. The plan for the chinooks is also to use them in a secondary SAR role here in Canada. So in a huge way it still is very much benefiting Canada.

I don't see that any of that equipment will be used in Canada, excepting training purposes. The reason we are buying the Chinook is so our boys in Afghanistan don't get killed by IEDs (which is a good reason), or at least that's the line they are feeding Canadians. With only 16 to be ordered, there won't be many left over after we deploy 4-8 of them to Afghanistan, as the rest will be training or getting ready to go to Afghanistan. The C-130Js will help yes, but I'm sure the first planes off the line aren't going to SAR, but to the transport squadrons supporting our missions around the world. I don't see how the JSS will support our ships in the St. Lawrence seaway other than training how to do ship-ship replenishment. If a DDH/FFH is running out of supplies, odds are that they will head to Halifax and resupply there, not do it just for fun.

Don't get me wrong, I support all of these purchases, especially the stuff for Afghanistan. Our troops should have the best. But calling it Canada First is BS.

meaden24 meaden24:

Canada first doesn't refer where the assests are used, it's where the financial benefits are. I was pretty sure everyone in Canada could understand that, guess not though.

Then it should be called Canada Financial First. Calling it Canada First is a politician's way of making people think that that priorities in and around Canada come first, not peacekeeping missions and the war on terror.

So what you're saying is that the Conservatives are continuing the age old practice of pork barrel politics. I thought Harper and his merry band were supposed to be better than the Libs and old PCs.

[SigPig]

bootlegga bootlegga:

SigPig SigPig:

bootlegga bootlegga:

I guess thought it was Canada First not Afghanistan first. Everything Harper has bought so far (JSS, C17s, C-130Js, armoured trucks and eventually Chinooks) does more to expand our international capabilities first and foremost. If you want to build up expeditionary capability fine, but don't call your plan Canada First.

To be fair, the C-130's, the JSS, and the Chinooks are all useful here at home. The JSS are needed for ANY mission the Navy goes on whehter its in the Persian Gulf or the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The C-130's will allow the oldest of our Hercs to be retired that are currently being used for SAR. The plan for the chinooks is also to use them in a secondary SAR role here in Canada. So in a huge way it still is very much benefiting Canada.

I don't see that any of that equipment will be used in Canada, excepting training purposes. The reason we are buying the Chinook is so our boys in Afghanistan don't get killed by IEDs (which is a good reason), or at least that's the line they are feeding Canadians. With only 16 to be ordered, there won't be many left over after we deploy 4-8 of them to Afghanistan, as the rest will be training or getting ready to go to Afghanistan. The C-130Js will help yes, but I'm sure the first planes off the line aren't going to SAR, but to the transport squadrons supporting our missions around the world. I don't see how the JSS will support our ships in the St. Lawrence seaway other than training how to do ship-ship replenishment. If a DDH/FFH is running out of supplies, odds are that they will head to Halifax and resupply there, not do it just for fun.

Don't get me wrong, I support all of these purchases, especially the stuff for Afghanistan. Our troops should have the best. But calling it Canada First is BS.

Ok, lets start with the Chinooks. Although only 16 are ordered now there is on option to increase that to 36 which leaves plenty left for here in Canada. And yes although they are badly needed in A'stan, the purchase of the Chinook is about restoring a capability to the CF that was sold to the Dutch in the 1990's. It was needed whether we were in A'stan or not. But it would be nice to stop hitching rides in the same choppers we sold to the Dutch.

The hercs that will be purchased will not go to SAR, in that you are correct. However, it will allow for the retirment of the oldest E model hercs and the oldest of the H model Hercs can go to SAR. Hercs are vital here at home as they transport all kinds of equipment between bases and are used to resupply CFS Alert.

And as for my example of the JSS in the St lawrence seaway was just an example that had nice symmetry with the Persian Gulf b/c they are both Gulfs. I didnt mean that they would literally be operating directly in the seaway .

[ridenrain]

Here's a perfect example of why we don't have money for aircraft:

[web]http://www.ottawasun.com/News/National/2008/04/14/5277716-sun.html[/web]

[Loader]

SigPig SigPig:

bootlegga bootlegga:

I guess thought it was Canada First not Afghanistan first. Everything Harper has bought so far (JSS, C17s, C-130Js, armoured trucks and eventually Chinooks) does more to expand our international capabilities first and foremost. If you want to build up expeditionary capability fine, but don't call your plan Canada First.

To be fair, the C-130's, the JSS, and the Chinooks are all useful here at home. The JSS are needed for ANY mission the Navy goes on whehter its in the Persian Gulf or the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The C-130's will allow the oldest of our Hercs to be retired that are currently being used for SAR. The plan for the chinooks is also to use them in a secondary SAR role here in Canada. So in a huge way it still is very much benefiting Canada.

SigPig, I have never heard of using Chinooks in a SAR role, even a secondary one, and am suprised that has been mentioned. Any platform can be used in a search role but rescue requires medical skill sets and equipment that I can't see the Chopper guys being able to maintain with the currencies that go along with that role. I agree any of our air assets are useful here at home and can, have been, or will be used to aid Canadians in Canada in fire, flood or other emergencies. The go to workhorse is the Herc which is frequently used to evacuate folks during fire season, as well as its SAR and Air to Air refueling roles. Expect in emergencies to see the CC177 (C-17) do fire evacs with its capability to land & takeoff on the same size unprepared strips a Herc uses. Remember the very first mission of our first CC177 was humanitarian aid (outside canada), but it just as easily could have delivered aid to anywhere in Canada.

[SigPig]

Loader Loader:

SigPig, I have never heard of using Chinooks in a SAR role, even a secondary one, and am suprised that has been mentioned. Any platform can be used in a search role but rescue requires medical skill sets and equipment that I can't see the Chopper guys being able to maintain with the currencies that go along with that role. I agree any of our air assets are useful here at home and can, have been, or will be used to aid Canadians in Canada in fire, flood or other emergencies. The go to workhorse is the Herc which is frequently used to evacuate folks during fire season, as well as its SAR and Air to Air refueling roles. Expect in emergencies to see the CC177 (C-17) do fire evacs with its capability to land & takeoff on the same size unprepared strips a Herc uses. Remember the very first mission of our first CC177 was humanitarian aid (outside canada), but it just as easily could have delivered aid to anywhere in Canada.

The use of chinooks in SAR is only as a secondary option if other assests are tied up else where. Plus they would be exteremly useful in times if natural disasters such as fires as tehy can go to evacuate people where a Herc could only dream of going.

Even the CC-177 has been used here in Canada to resupply alert. It made one trip where 4 hercs would have been needed before.

These are both huge new capabilites that benefit Canada at home and abroad.

[Loader]

SigPig SigPig:

Loader Loader:

SigPig, I have never heard of using Chinooks in a SAR role, even a secondary one, and am suprised that has been mentioned. Any platform can be used in a search role but rescue requires medical skill sets and equipment that I can't see the Chopper guys being able to maintain with the currencies that go along with that role. I agree any of our air assets are useful here at home and can, have been, or will be used to aid Canadians in Canada in fire, flood or other emergencies. The go to workhorse is the Herc which is frequently used to evacuate folks during fire season, as well as its SAR and Air to Air refueling roles. Expect in emergencies to see the CC177 (C-17) do fire evacs with its capability to land & takeoff on the same size unprepared strips a Herc uses. Remember the very first mission of our first CC177 was humanitarian aid (outside canada), but it just as easily could have delivered aid to anywhere in Canada.

The use of chinooks in SAR is only as a secondary option if other assests are tied up else where. Plus they would be exteremly useful in times if natural disasters such as fires as tehy can go to evacuate people where a Herc could only dream of going.

Even the CC-177 has been used here in Canada to resupply alert. It made one trip where 4 hercs would have been needed before.

These are both huge new capabilites that benefit Canada at home and abroad.

Fully agree. As to BOXTOP, I thought the 177 only went as far as Thule.I would think they would be concerned about the Alert gravel damaging the underbelly, do you know if it landed in Alert for sure?