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<strong>Title: </strong> <a href="/link.php?id=27164" target="_blank">Forgotten WWII 'Lightning' fighter found on beach</a> (click to view)

<strong>Category:</strong> <a href="/news/topic/15-history" target="_blank">History</a>
<strong>Posted By: </strong> <a href="/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&username=Hyack" target="_blank">Hyack</a>
<strong>Date: </strong> 2007-11-16 08:12:12

[Guest]

COOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Regina]

Anonymous Anonymous:

COOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

That was me.

[sasquatch2]

I recall a neighbour, X-RCAF, recounting training USAF aircrew to fly DH Mosquitos. At first they were resentful about having to fly non-american aircraft....until they got their first ride in the starboard seat. Enthusiasm increased exponentially. Many were X P38 pilots selected for their experience with twin engined fighters. The 8th USAAF adapted the Mossie primarilly as a night-fighter. Their experience led to it's adoption as a light bomber.

Due to the antics of the USAF Mosquito drivers many P51 drivers applied to transfer. The Mossie was faster and more heavilly armed....20mm cannon in the belly.

The RAF was always lukewarm about P38's.

[Regina]

P-38 was more popular and more successful in the Pacific theatre. Top Ace Richard Bong had 40 kills in the P-38. It was also a group of P-38s that were sent to shoot down Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's plane over Bougainville in April 1944.

[sasquatch2]

The point a lot of folk miss is that these birds were interceptors not dog-fighters.

Me, I have always had some doubt about my neighbour's claims but then every vet should be allowed licence to BS a bit---it's only fair.

[kal]

The P-38 didn't become known as the "fork-tailed devil" to Nazi soldiers for no reason. Sure, it might not have been able tango with Focke-Wulfs or newer Messerschmitts, but the damned thing was hell to an armoured division on the ground. In this case I don't care to much how effective the airplane was though. This is a great relic and I'm glad someone is going to recover it.

[sasquatch2]

kal

$1:

The P-38 didn't become known as the "fork-tailed devil" to Nazi soldiers for no reason.

A 37mm cannon in a heavy battery of machine guns will do that to you. The nazi's went off on a stupid tangeant with their Zerstroyer BF110 earlier a concept Goring was loath to abandon.

My neighbour is still around and I consulted him on this and his reply was this was attributed to the Lulfwaffe's bomber crews.

The luftwaffe produced a Mosquito clone but never a P38 clone.

He then mentioned the myth that the P38's handed props, (turning opposite directions) cancelled out propellor torque giving the P38 an advantage in a dive over single engine fighters. The truth was P38's avoided dives because they resulted in control lock-up or tail shedding.

[Regina]

sasquatch2 sasquatch2:

The truth was P38's avoided dives because they resulted in control lock-up or tail shedding.

That was in the earlier models. Lockheed installed dive recovery flaps under each wing in 1944 to restore lift and smooth the airflow enough to maintain control when diving at high-speed. It's real strength was it's superior climb rate which would be favoured in any choice between dive or climbing to get out of trouble.

[sasquatch2]

Regina

$1:

Lockheed installed dive recovery flaps under each wing in 1944 to restore lift and smooth the airflow enough to maintain control when diving at high-speed.

only on the last 129 built. Retrofit kits seldom were installed.

These were dive flaps rather than dive recovery flaps. They automatically deployed in 1.5 seconds when the lift shifted off the top of the wing. The shedding and lockup was the result of the centre of lift leaving the wing to the tail.

Compressibility. This was why the MiG 15 have recovery rockets in the tail.

[Regina]

Lockheed called them dive recovery flaps. If they started installing them in 1944 there would have been more than 129 of them built since they were manufacturing them at least till the end of the war. That data may belong to one of the many series produced.
In any event climbing rather than diving was the prefered tactic since that was it's superior quality.

[sasquatch2]

dive flaps etc.

$1:

The dive flaps were installed outboard of the engine nacelles and in action they extended downward 35° in 1½ seconds. The flaps did not act as a speed brake, they affected the center of pressure distribution so that the wing would not lose its lift.[16] Late in 1943, a few hundred dive flap field modification kits were assembled to give North African, European and Pacific P-38s a chance to withstand compressibility and expand their combat tactics. Unfortunately, these crucial flaps did not always reach their destination. In March 1944, 200 dive flap kits intended for ETO P-38Js were destroyed in a mistaken identification incident in which an RAF fighter shot down the Douglas C-54 Skymaster bringing the shipment to England. P-38Js coming off the assembly line in spring 1944 were towed out to the tarmac and modified in the open air. The flaps were finally incorporated into the production line in June 1944 on the last 210 P-38Js. The delay in bringing the dive flap and its freedom of tactical maneuver to the fighting pilot was far too lengthy. Of all Lightnings built, only the last series would have the dive flaps installed as an assembly line sequence.

BTW they have a name for pilots who try to climb their way out of a dog-fight......dead men. A pursuing fighter may over shoot but while he is doing it will shoot your ass off.

[Regina]

That's what I thought.......it was last 210 production P-38J's. There were P-38K's(only tested), P38L's, P-38M's and recon variants produced after the J's were done. The way I read your cut and paste refers to the last of the J's. There's no mention of any other variant not having them installed and the P-38L was the largest production variant.

Actually what I think you mean is a pilot who doesn't know the strength and weakness of his aircraft is a dead man. For instance jamming the nose of a Spitfire into a dive briefly made the engine cut out since it was not fuel injected........like the BF109 on his tail. Therefore the Spitfire's strength was a climbing turn to evade his pursuer. When situation was reversed obviously the BF 109 would choose a diving turn.

[sasquatch2]

Actually loss of power with the carbureted Merlin was not a problem if the evasive maneuver was a snap half roll, with a pull back on the stick. The elevators bite much more effectively. The G force on the carburetor actually increased, power is mantained and the dive is initiated almost instantly compared to just simply pushing the stick forward and waiting.........

Instantaneous rate of roll is one of the important factors in the maneuverability envelope of a fighter.

Nosing up is not clever. It reduces your speed and inertia and makes you a bigger, sluggish target.

In certain circumstances, it can result in your enemy over-shooting and placing you on his 6, if you can get your nose down fast enough and regain your speed. The snap roll thingy is the most effective way to effect that.

The trick is to avoid negative G's with a carburetor.

A better rate of climb is an important factor generally only in the setup phase to a dogfight.

[Regina]

Thanks for repeating what I just said.