[HyperionTheEvil]

$1:

Indians and thier illegal blockades.

Beating up retired people and trying to kill police officers.
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saga
LIES LIES! Where do you get your information? From the NEWSpaper?? They only print what sells!! Truth has nothing to do with it!

.

and were supposed to just the word from a bunch of home grown terrorists who claim to repsect the rule of law, but only when it suits them. Oh how i love it when irony comes around. when natives demand that the Canadian goverment give them cash for bogus claims under the law, but then contiunally flout it themselves.

And as for your assertion that the newspapers are lying, we're supposed to look at your little propaganda nest of 'weaselisland' as an accurate source? Please, look you want to be a moonbat that your business. but dont expect Canadians and especially the innocent victims of indian violence at Caledonia to buy your BS.

Want some respect?, then start acting like adults and not whiney children and always having your handout for free tax-payer money

Just another example of indian violence

So that rational people can see how indians really are ive provided the above link - again.

[themasta]

$1:

Today I learned that a Facist is someone who is emotional and does not heed reason or rational thought. They are the type of person you will never win an arguement with because no matter what facts you bring to bare, their actions are dictated and driven by their own emotional involvement. Therefore, I submit that due to saga being incapable of being persauded by reason, that she is a Facist. Let her chew on that a while.


EXCUSE ME THEMASTA ... did you say something reasonable and I missed it?

Yes in fact, many times. The fact that you cannot recall said reason is evidence of your emotions dictating your debate. You will not hear any side that does not conform to your views and anybody who tries to throw up a rational arguement is completely ignored (or harassed) by you. Shouldn't you be out knitting or something? Honestly, you might blow a blood vessel with all your ranting and raving, though by no means stop. It's always nice to know that there's people like you out in the world to make life interesting. Even a king needs his jester, how does it feel to be the joke?

[saga]

Thank you PJB. I try not to lower myself to the level of discourse thrown at me, though at times I admit I can't resist!

My real message here is that the governments of Canada and the provinces have outstanding obligations to First Nations under the laws of Canada. We have ducked these legal responsibilities for over two hundred years by largely calling on our police forces and the army to stifle dissent ... by criminalizing the actions by which Indigenous people attempted to get Canada to observe its own laws.

I feel that our governments use our police forces unfairly in land claims issues. They are playing good-cop bad-cop but police are always cast in the bad-cop role, and then the government comes in 'saves the day' by agreeing to negotiate.

I don't think this is right. The government should clean up its own mess of land claims backlog without involving the police in an aggressive role. The April 20th raid at Caledonia has left a town in tatters. Ultimately, the citizens will have to accept the decisions about the land claims, but the violent beginning has left a huge chasm that will be hard to bridge. That is unfortunate, and is a direct result of the government's delay.

cheers!

[HyperionTheEvil]

$1:

Thank you PJB. I try not to lower myself to the level of discourse thrown at me, though at times I admit I can't resist!

My real message here is that the governments of Canada and the provinces have outstanding obligations to First Nations under the laws of Canada. We have ducked these legal responsibilities for over two hundred years by largely calling on our police forces and the army to stifle dissent ... by criminalizing the actions by which Indigenous people attempted to get Canada to observe its own laws.

I feel that our governments use our police forces unfairly in land claims issues. They are playing good-cop bad-cop but police are always cast in the bad-cop role, and then the government comes in 'saves the day' by agreeing to negotiate.

I don't think this is right. The government should clean up its own mess of land claims backlog without involving the police in an aggressive role. The April 20th raid at Caledonia has left a town in tatters. Ultimately, the citizens will have to accept the decisions about the land claims, but the violent beginning has left a huge chasm that will be hard to bridge. That is unfortunate, and is a direct result of the government's delay.

cheers!

Easy solution

disband the DOIA or whtaever its called, use the non-withstanding clause to void all claims. Indians are no longer the 'first nations' or anything other than Canadians. They dont like it have them immigrate to their real origins - russia

[saga]

weevil says...
and were supposed to just the word from a bunch of home grown terrorists who claim to repsect the rule of law, but only when it suits them. Oh how i love it when irony comes around. when natives demand that the Canadian goverment give them cash for bogus claims under the law, but then contiunally flout it themselves.
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saga says
True. They prefer their own law. They only really care about Canada enforcing its laws on itself:
They are our laws our governments are flouting them, have for a long time. The laws haven't gone away, and have been brought forward. The Two Row Wampum/Silver Covenant Chain are included in the Constitution of Canada as Aboriginal rights and Aboriginal titles. These treaties specify we are independent nations, and their lands can be reclaimed.
As a citizen, I am tired of the rancor. We have to live together. Why create antagonism?
We need the greenbelts. They will create a greenbelt, forcing developers to do what they know must happen (but hope it's later). There is no more urban sprawl development on the Haldimand tract. Towns and cities will be developed instead - infill development, brownfield and old industrial buildings. It fits with the demographic too - all of us retired baby boomers, living downtown where everything is convenient, no car needed, etc. It's all good!

Ontario and Canada pay them for the settled areas "your property deeds are good" said Jane Stewart.

And as for your assertion that the newspapers are lying, we're supposed to look at your little propaganda nest of 'weaselisland' as an accurate source? Please, look you want to be a moonbat that your business. but dont expect Canadians and especially the innocent victims of indian violence at Caledonia to buy your BS.

The filthymouthed elderly couple, weevil, swerved their car to try to hit two Six Nation's men, and the old guy tried to grab a Six Nations woman's arm from the car. That was on their way OUT after driving IN to the site, past the woman who greeted them, apparently insisting in vulgar terms that they had a right to "go and look at the houses they're building". (They did not. just turned around.) From there it a matter of record, though there was no assault of the couple, harassment yes, but it was at all times mutual. The old gal got out of the car to confront Audra.
...............
Want some respect?, then start acting like adults and not whiney children and always having your handout for free tax-payer money
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These assumptions are rampant among some groups. The government money received by Indigenous communities is half that of our municipalities. Haudenosaunee Six Nations people are entrepreneurs, iron workers, nurses, youth workers ... like any community (except the iron workers).
The bulk of the $9b is spent in the Department of Indian Affairs, which will become mooter as time goes on.
................
Just another example of indian violence

So that rational people can see how indians really are ive provided the above link - again.
................

Yes you've dug back to June to find that. She went into custody, I believe.
They did not have the authorization to leave the site, and the Haudenosaunee Confederacy did a press release the next day opposing the violence.

They secure and defend themselves ably when attacked or invaded. It has been necessary. The group of supporters ... and myself ... all became involved because of concerns for their physical safety, knowing that our governments would be slow to respond.

[saga]

Easy solution

disband the DOIA or whtaever its called, use the non-withstanding clause to void all claims. Indians are no longer the 'first nations' or anything other than Canadians. They dont like it have them immigrate to their real origins - russia
.......................
We'd need UN support for that nasty bit of ethnic cleansing!

They do not wish to be Canadian.
The treaties are nation-to-nation.
It is time Canada hououred all of its agreements with Indigenous people.

Then all this talk of aggression could end.
We already tried to anihilate them in many many ways. It hasn't worked yet, and the UN is onto us now.

Any other ideas?

[HyperionTheEvil]

$1:

Easy solution

disband the DOIA or whtaever its called, use the non-withstanding clause to void all claims. Indians are no longer the 'first nations' or anything other than Canadians. They dont like it have them immigrate to their real origins - russia
.......................
We'd need UN support for that nasty bit of ethnic cleansing!

They do not wish to be Canadian.
The treaties are nation-to-nation.
It is time Canada hououred all of its agreements with Indigenous people.

Then all this talk of aggression could end.
We already tried to anihilate them in many many ways. It hasn't worked yet, and the UN is onto us now.

Any other ideas?

Good we got that settled they dont want to be Canadian, presumambly the indians who dont want to be Candians have rembered enogough of their own' culture' to build canoe and start paddling back to russia.

since there not and never were a 'nation' by your own words they are stateless people and canadians no longer - and never did - owe them anything

Have a nice trip

[PJB]

saga..I hate to inform you but pushing the nation to nation thing right now is not a good idea. Too many Canadians are starting to feel that the natives in this country are demanding too much.

How can we have a country if we have all of these other 'nations' within our borders?

If, as you state, these people do not want to be Canadian then do you think they should be entitled to the same rights as Canadians?

[HyperionTheEvil]

PJB PJB:

saga..I hate to inform you but pushing the nation to nation thing right now is not a good idea. Too many Canadians are starting to feel that the natives in this country are demanding too much.

How can we have a country if we have all of these other 'nations' within our borders?

If, as you state, these people do not want to be Canadian then do you think they should be entitled to the same rights as Canadians?

I agree with you. but she's drunk the Kool-Aid so there's no trying to explain reason to her. But they are nat a 'nation, never were a nation and therefore can be either Canadians or Stateless people. Perhaps Valdimir Puting will be more understanding of thier whining and bitching when and if they move thier sorry asses back

[saga]

saga..I hate to inform you but pushing the nation to nation thing right now is not a good idea. Too many Canadians are starting to feel that the natives in this country are demanding too much.

How can we have a country if we have all of these other 'nations' within our borders?

If, as you state, these people do not want to be Canadian then do you think they should be entitled to the same rights as Canadians?
....................................
They are demanding only that Canada honour its legal agreements with them. I have noticed that no one here wants to discuss the legal obligations that Canada has toward Indigenous groups, and yet that is the sole issue between them and our governments. Canada and Ontario are negotiating with the Haudenosaunee of Six Nations BECAUSE those legitimate claims exist. Our governments don't deny the legitimacy of the claims, they just delay, obfuscate, and try to turn Canadians against the natives to further their own cause of avoiding legal responsibilities.

I'm not sure how sovereignty would work either, but that is Canada's problem to work out with them. I certainly understand why they would want out, if you look at the history of how we have treated them. Now that there is a settlement process in place for residential school abuse, we can't even provide them with valid records indicating that they attended! And the children who died there - 50,000 of them - still not acknowledged. It's just one tragic Canadian-made mess after another!
Canadian policy states that "self-governance" is a possibility so it remains to be seen how the government intends to handle that. It is, however, ridiculous for Canadians to object to what is already Canadian law, because that is what will determine the settlements - land and compensation, and relationships.

The view that Indigenous people get more than they deserve is incorrect. That opinion is historical government propoganda (bought into by a lot of Canadians) designed to "keep them in their place" as second class citizens. The fact that they are not taxable on reserves (only) is a quiet recognition of their sovereign status. What they have been given is what they call "hush money" which doesn't come close to our legal obligations to pay them for the land and resources. Just as one example, the historical Haudenosaunee agreements with Canada included 3 cents per tree logged in the Haldimand tract. That money was never paid. No corporate entity would ever let the government away with that. No Canadian citizen would tolerate not being paid for the use of their land.

Neither will they. It's all a matter of land and money, and it's all a matter of negotiation with our governments. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

I think the majority of Canadians are content to let the government work out reasonable agreements with them. And I think the majority of Canadians know that we have obligations not yet addressed. And I think the majority of Canadians, like me, look forward to finally settling the accounts and restoring Canada's honour by honouring our legal agrements.
Most Canadians also, especially those who were around in the 1930's to 1960's, are aware of the devastation of families and individuals through the residential schools policy, the Sixties scoop, etc. These were not humanitarian policies, and many Canadians understand that it was ALWAYS about the land that we didn't really own and didn't want to pay for.

It is sad that the government has historically placed the police in a position of implementing its draconian and illegal policies, but that is the reality.
The sooner the police, army, etc. wake up to the fact that they have been used for illegal purposes, the sooner this atangonistic approach can end and the violence associated with land reclamation can end.

The true reality is what is happening in Caledonia now: The police protect the Haudenosaunee from the townspeople while the government finally steps up and acknowledges their rights and titles under the Canadian Constitution.

I have posted above a historical account of the Haldimand tract. It is a good overview of the legal issues that are now being dealt with in negotiation.

[saga]

I agree with you. but she's drunk the Kool-Aid so there's no trying to explain reason to her. But they are nat a 'nation, never were a nation and therefore can be either Canadians or Stateless people. Perhaps Valdimir Puting will be more understanding of thier whining and bitching when and if they move thier sorry asses back

They were nations for centuries before Europeans arrived. The Haudenosaunee were self governing until 1924 when the Indian Act dissolved the centuries old Confederacy, outlawing both their participatory democracy and their RELIGION. Again the nasty task of implementing this illegal policy fell to the police - RCMP in this case ... at gunpoint. Practice of traditional spirituality was ILLEGAL and was punished harshly in the residential schools.
They are simply resuming their previous status.

Hyperion, if you or others can propose a reasonable solution, I'm listening. However, shooting them or sending them to Russia just doesn't have any merit. Knee-jerk racist solutions just don't have any merit. Thought, respect and honourable approaches are required if we are to live in peace. I don't think there are many Canadians who would support an approach that meant ongoing strife, violence and disruption.

Of all of the people, including politicians, who have ranted against the occupation of Douglas Creek Estates, NOT ONE has suggested any realistic solution. Violent oppression of their rights was our approach in the past, but it just isn't reasonable any more, and it isn't right.

[saga]

I am delighted to finally have a realistic discussion of these issues!
Unfortunately, I am still in jail ... for "starting flame wars" by refusing to tolerate racially suspect responses. I just happened to find this open window, and now my account is suspended too.

I have some difficulty with the fact that I am "imprisoned" for stating opinions different than the prevailing dogma. There are others here who agree, when they are not shouted down. I was particularly delighted when another member responded to a racial put-down by saying
"Look fucker, you're talking to an Indian!" (APPLAUSE APPLAUSE! LOL LOL LOL)

I know there are aboriginal police officers and soldiers. Maybe you should be asking your colleagues about these issues. I'm sure they have better ideas than shooting them all or sending them to russia.

[Arctic_Menace]

$1:

I am delighted to finally have a realistic discussion of these issues!
Unfortunately, I am still in jail ... for "starting flame wars" by refusing to tolerate racially suspect responses.

Ah, the life of the delusional.

[saga]

... and stay tuned for the news next week about the fate of Judge David Marshall's "injunction" that initiated the violence in Caledonia. It's not looking good for the judge. As a major land'owner' in the Haldimand Tract, he is in a clear conflict of interest position and should have recused himself. This will not escape the notice of the appeal court.

You may also be interested in knowing that the developers, the Henning brothers, who demanded the injunction are under suspicion of having scraped the land clean to try to destroy any sign of burial grounds on the property. They are not innocent. They knew it was native land. Archeologists are now studying it again.

It is tragic that this historical site has been desecrated in this way, for that is the site of Onondaga Village, the capital of the original Five Nations.

[PJB]

saga..I tend to question the claim that 50,000 natives died in residential schools. Please provide proof of this claim.

Also you state that most Canadians would be content with a fair settlement over these land claims. What would you say is fair? Money? Land? Both? and would these settlements be final or would they be appealed a few years down the line when the bands involved run out of money?