[Newsbot]

Title: Calais delays as migrants target ship
Category: World
Posted By: martin14
Date: 2016-01-23 11:04:29

[martin14]

One day, we will see some serious violence on the ferries.

Nice of the demonstrators to cover up the attempted takeover.

[andyt]

I do not see why they don't just send them back where they came from. Europe seems to be going down the same path as the US - turning a blind eye to illegal immigration in order to keep down wages. Crazy.

[Hmmmm]

andyt andyt:

Europe seems to be .... turning a blind eye to illegal immigration in order to keep down wages. I do not see why they don't just send them back where they came from.

There could be various reasons but regardless, those migrants might be just a tiny wee bit difficult to "send back." What are the total numbers now and where are they all?

I don't for a moment believe these huge migrations are the result of some European plot to entice or retain them for lower wages. They are the result of warfare, religious/racial violence and extreme economic imbalance among nations.

It puzzles me why many in North America think they have more understanding than Europeans do, of what's happening in Europe, or enough wisdom and relevant experience to prescribe viable solutions from the sidelines.

(Edit) or why they even seem to care??

[andyt]

The Europeans certainly have done very little to try to get rid of these illegal migrants. Now they're paying the price. It used to be that these people would come in, stay for a brief stint to work in the gray economy, then go home. Once Europe firmed up the external borders, the migrants were afraid to leave and just stayed. And Europe seems to have turned a blind eye to it. I don't for a moment claim to be an expert on the situation, but it seems very similar to the US. Lots for gnashing of teeth about getting rid of the illegal immigrants, but very little attempt to put teeth in legislation that goes after employers and setting up a proper visa system to bring them in legally the way we do. The US has become addicted to the cheap labor these people provide.

[Hmmmm]

andyt andyt:

Europe seems to be ... turning a blind eye to illegal immigration in order to keep down wages.

By Europe do you mean European governments - surely not unanimous - or the various populations, maybe even more divided and in some cases very angry and fearful?

[andyt]

Of course the govts. Look at the situation at Calais. How could that be allowed to fester for so long. It does not good for either the Europeans or the migrants.

[Hmmmm]

andyt andyt:

...I don't for a moment claim to be an expert on the situation....

Makes two of us but I have my judgements & opinions

$1:

Look at the situation at Calais. How could that be allowed to fester for so long.

How could it be stopped, short of machine-gunning? These people don't come in twos & threes like Mexicans at the US border. They arrive by sea and overland in groups of - what - thousands?

$1:

It does not good for either the Europeans or the migrants.

Or ultimately, for the world. But I think the refugees are not the real root of the problem. They are a major symptom, finally erupting into the open.

[andyt]

The ones in Calais come in ones and twos. They are not refugees but economic migrants. They should be sent given the choice of going home or living in a detention camp. Make it seriously unattractive for them to come and they will stop.

The ones flooding in from Turkey are refugees with economic migrants mixed in. The only thing I can think of there is the West ponying up to support them in countries surrounding Syria/Iraq until maybe the mess gets solved. Again, send the Pakistanis etc home. Thing is that January arrivals in Greece is much higher than last year. Once the weather gets better, look out, make last year seem like a trickle.

[martin14]

andyt andyt:

The ones in Calais come in ones and twos. They are not refugees but economic migrants. They should be sent given the choice of going home or living in a detention camp. Make it seriously unattractive for them to come and they will stop.

Until someone in Europe gets enough balls to actually start shooting people,
it will not stop.

The Jungle is the perfect example of the rot and the idiocy in Europe.

[Hmmmm]

andyt andyt:

The ones in Calais come in ones and twos. They are not refugees but economic migrants. They should be sent given the choice of going home or living in a detention camp. Make it seriously unattractive for them to come and they will stop.

At Calais, there are already about 6000 living in "The Jungle" which is pretty seriously unattractive.

I don't attach much importance to distinguishing between "economic" and other refugees. These people are fleeing poverty or violence and often both (besides some who have other reasons to take advantage of the mass migration)

The enormous flood of refugees across Europe is, and will be, disruptive to the European economy, politics and way of life. The established populations rightly fear that their countries are going to be seriously affected - maybe to a disastrous extent. But demonizing the migrants or trying to forcibly eject them will only make things worse, and sooner.

The real deep-root causes of this problem are the worldwide gap between rich and poor. They won't be solved by force.

At any rate, that's my opinion

[martin14]

Hmmmm Hmmmm:

I don't attach much importance to distinguishing between "economic" and other refugees. These people are fleeing poverty or violence and often both (besides some who have other reasons to take advantage of the mass migration)


At any rate, that's my opinion

I wonder if you will keep your opinion when it is your neighborhood being invaded.

My guess, your eyes will stay firmly shut.

[andyt]

Hmmmm Hmmmm:

The enormous flood of refugees across Europe is, and will be, disruptive to the European economy, politics and way of life. The established populations rightly fear that their countries are going to be seriously affected - maybe to a disastrous extent. But demonizing the migrants or trying to forcibly eject them will only make things worse, and sooner.

The real deep-root causes of this problem are the worldwide gap between rich and poor. They won't be solved by force.

At any rate, that's my opinion

You're right as to the causes. But allowing these people to flood into the West will just fark up the Western countries without doing anything for he all the people left behind. That's not demonizing the migrants, just a realistic view of them. And forcibly ejecting them and making it unattractive for them to come in the first place seems to be the only option. If nobody hired these illegal migrants, nor provided them with welfare, they would stop coming in short order. Same as the US. If a country needs workers, bring them in as fully vetted immigrants. We're the envy of the world for our system, much as I like to rag on it.

What the West should be doing is working much harder to reduce that gap between rich and poor worldwide. It would be in the West's best interests. Instead we are creating an ever greater gap between our own rich and poor and supporting the formation of a global elite that will control everything and make peons of the rest of us. All in slavish abeyance to "the market" and "capitalism". The market and capitalism need controls to prevent them from running amok instead of providing what's best for the many instead of the few.

Weren't you the guy who started off her as Mr. Hard Right? Maybe I'm mixing you up with somebody else.

[Hmmmm]

andyt andyt:

You're right as to the causes. But allowing these people to flood into the West will just fark up the Western countries without doing anything for he all the people left behind. That's not demonizing the migrants, just a realistic view of them. And forcibly ejecting them and making it unattractive for them to come in the first place seems to be the only option. If nobody hired these illegal migrants, nor provided them with welfare, they would stop coming in short order. Same as the US. If a country needs workers, bring them in as fully vetted immigrants. We're the envy of the world for our system, much as I like to rag on it.

What the West should be doing is working much harder to reduce that gap between rich and poor worldwide. It would be in the West's best interests. Instead we are creating an ever greater gap between our own rich and poor and supporting the formation of a global elite that will control everything and make peons of the rest of us. All in slavish abeyance to "the market" and "capitalism". The market and capitalism need controls to prevent them from running amok instead of providing what's best for the many instead of the few.

I'm about to exit this thread, andyt. Thanks for your input. I guess neither of us is going to influence things - or each other - very much. I still have issues with your first paragraph: It's too late to do anything "in the first place" - that horse has bolted - and I don't believe the influx has anything to do with countries needing workers.

Equating conditions, mindset, political climate between the US & Europe is not, I think, realistic. The general mentalities & ideological preferences are just too far apart.

On the root cause and potential cure we're in agreement. But that cure will never happen voluntarily - it would require more "balls" than the west possesses?

$1:

Weren't you the guy who started off her as Mr. Hard Right?

Haha, No!! I may be occasionally right but seldom "-> Right." - or hard either (it's an age thing - in both cases??? )