[Jabberwalker]

raydan raydan:

We could have the same discussion if I flew the Québec flag out my window. Some would think that I do it because I love my province, others that I'm a BLOC/PQ voting separatist.

Those Fleur de Lys in the four corners are a symbol of the Ancoien Regime and post-revolutionary France may not share the same warm-and-fuzzy feelings about the family crest of the Bourbons.

[BRAH]

andyt andyt:

BRAH BRAH:

In your World removing the flag will end racism, are you that obtuse?

Good strawman. And nice demonstration of typical rightie tightie black and white thinking. "If it doesn't end racism, why do it?"

It's one small step for mankind, removing a symbol that appears to legitimize racism. Many such steps and you wind up getting somewhere.

Tell me where I'm wrong and where was this outrage by the Left and Lame Stream Media against the flag before the tragic shooting?

Funny thing is the Right used the same flag in 2000 for the Bush Cheney campaign and they're not calling for it to be banned but the Left is because even Obama admitted the Left has no political clout to go after the gun laws so instead they focus on a flag, it's all about optics which you're to blind to see.

[andyt]

Quebecois = Southern Crackers. Probably have monuments of Montcalm too.

[Jabberwalker]

raydan raydan:

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

This is a good thing. My point is that it's impossible to find a symbol that is positive for everybody. Those Fleaur de Lys are a similar sort of remembrance of your heritage as our Union Jacks ore of ours.

[Jabberwalker]

andyt andyt:

Quebecois = Southern Crackers. Probably have monuments of Montcalm too.

They have a big statue of Nelson with his back to the sea in Vieux Montreal.

[BRAH]

raydan raydan:

So, as usual, this has become a Left vs Right thing.

I've never seen so many discussions come down to this... and you guys say Andy's a one-trick-pony.

What did you expect, rock paper scissors?

[Thanos]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Thanos Thanos:

xerxes xerxes:

Once again this dead horse needs to be flogged: the Democratic Party of the 19th century bears little resemblance to its current incarnation except for the name. This is equally true of the Republican Party.

His OCD is completely overwhelming so it's best to ignore him when he goes into full-blown Sheldon Cooper mode. Nothing you're saying is getting through the massive wall of obstinacy so you're better off not even trying.

Really?

You think I'm like super-genius, Sheldon Cooper? C'mon...you're gonna make me blush.

But you may be right. I do seem to know stuff you 2 don't. I'd like you to stick around for the Nazi talk cause that seems inevitable and it's always amusing, but maybe you're right. Maybe you might be more comfortable moving along.

I think that you're an intelligent and diligent person, which makes what you do here sometimes that much more tragic. As Ulysses S. Grant might have said, it's sad to see what's probably a good person give himself so fully to such wretched causes.

[Thanos]

raydan raydan:

So, as usual, this has become a Left vs Right thing.

I've never seen so many discussions come down to this... and you guys say Andy's a one-trick-pony.

Not really. This one's thrown the left vs. right paradigm right out the goddamn window, with historical descriptions of both philosophies that have existed for decades turned on their heads and re-arranged into something unrecognizable. And it's all being done just to satisfy the bizarre talking points of-the-moment too, at the behest of all those chucklefucks on FOX and the rightist internet hate sites, which makes it kind of awful.

[andyt]

I don't think they lets us have porn on this site, and cats stink.

[BRAH]

raydan raydan:

BRAH BRAH:

raydan raydan:

So, as usual, this has become a Left vs Right thing.

I've never seen so many discussions come down to this... and you guys say Andy's a one-trick-pony.

What did you expect, rock paper scissors?

We should settle all our discussions that way... the time we save could be used for more important things... like watching porn... or cat videos.

Meh, we should settle it like this.

[sandorski]

Quite the week in the US, possibly the most Change has occurred in it than the whole Obama Presidency.

1) The ACA survives yet another Legal Challenge. This is the least of the events, but is important.

2) Racism has been confronted head on in dramatic fashion. This event has been building up for the last few years with incident after incident exposing deep racial biases. Most of those were mostly milder Racism, more about Stereotypes than Racial Superiority, until Dylan Roof came along and was clear his action was about Superiority.

Whether removing the Confederate Battle Flag from the Public sphere solves the issue or not(it certainly doesn't), it's at least a step in the right direction. Despite all the denials, at the very core of that flag is Racism and Slavery. The Historical records show it and repeatedly the most unabashedly Racist White individuals in the US have used it to rally around.

That's not to say that all who value it do so for that purpose. In fact I will admit that there has been a culture developed around it that has nothing to do with Racism or Slavery. That doesn't change the origins of it though and as such this day of judgement regarding this symbol was inevitable.

There's still a lot of work to be done on that issue though.

3) About equivalentish to #2, Same Sex Marriage becomes the Law of all 50 US States. Despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth surrounding this decision, it doesn't really affect much. Unlike #2, this issue is largely over, although I'm sure the wailing will never stop for some.

[Delwin]

Yep lots of political battles lost this week. They are going to need a new battleflag.

[PluggyRug]

[Khar]

I have thoughts! And opinions! And thoughts of opinions!

raydan raydan:

So, as usual, this has become a Left vs Right thing.

I've never seen so many discussions come down to this... and you guys say Andy's a one-trick-pony.

It's especially funny on this issue because most news I've been reading is about the senators and governor from South Carolina, all Republicans, ceasing their support for the flag and moving for it's removal. Or the Republican speaker of Mississippi saying it might be time to box the flag and put up a new one without the Confederate battle flag on it. How about the Republican Alabama governor, who ordered Confederate flags taken down? Every day more and more politicians and presidential candidates come out against the flag, and a large proportion of them are conservative and Republican.

It takes a lot of courage to challenge beliefs dearly held, and I'm impressed and proud of those politicians who, like the Democrats of 60 years ago, are choosing to do just that, to shine a light on something problematic and trying to do better. If it's not better, fine, debate that, not what colour their campaign signs will be in a year's time. This should be a point of pride and not one of distaste and partisan resentment, and I'm sad when it becomes that when the issues facing the American people are not all that partisan in the first place.

While businesses are always cautious and trend towards removal of material regardless of actual political outcomes, some of the businesses that have been rejecting the flag are surprises. Who thought the chairman of NASCAR would be coming out and declaring his opposition to the flag? Who thought Southern military parks would be removing the flag with fair rapidity?

This isn't something being done by progressives. It's something that has moderates AND conservatives on board. In the old days, the Dixiecrats kept the fight alive, until the party decided that it was time to move away from it's racist base, look towards the future and become something better. It had an impact; strategists for the Republicans, like Lee Atwater, pointed out their somewhat racial strategies in the years after (oriented around their Southern strategy) had to be toned down, because it just wasn't acceptable any more to run on race. Run on things that effected races differently (like some kinds of welfare), sure, but not race itself. Even that has changed with time.

Over successive governments, parties, and entire generations, the South might have retained some of it's flavour, some of it's history, but the reason for that distinct history revolved around the decades long disputes about slavery before the war, and the eventual war itself. The flag is the standard of a state that supported states rights, yes, but oriented around a flashpoint of slavery; regardless how some in the south see it, others in the south, especially those of colour, and the majority of those in the North see it as a flag of secessionists fighting for a racial cause.

Even if for some it doesn't stand for that, it does stand for something different now. As andyt rightly points out, the flag is used by white supremacists, extremists, and for racial purposes across the USA. It's used for an ideological battle on the net; forums and groups dedicated to such causes use imagery like the flag. What it has become is hardly innocuous, and there frankly hasn't been a good response to this issue either. Not without reason either; while many supporters associate it with State's rights, some others also associate it with white supremacy over the other "races."

At the end of the day, it lends itself to the final question, one that isn't of censorship (you can still use the flag privately or for your corporation, etc), but of respect for the mass of citizenry; should a divisive flag that stood for an enemy state in combat, one that rejected acceptance of American values and was heavily related to a modern racial and ancient slavery issue, stand in front of a building meant to represent a government that protects those American values for all citizens, white and black, within it's borders?

There is a difference between remembering history and identifying with it. The CSA is gone. The sacrifices of those Americans who defeated it and it's problematic aspects made sure of that. Things like States rights are seen well enough as part of the USA identity, not the CSA one alone; what good it gave has been taken for the USA already. It no longer carries a message worthy of the esteemed place in front of homes of democracy.

[Thanos]

Khar Khar:

It's especially funny on this issue because most news I've been reading is about the senators and governor from South Carolina, all Republicans, ceasing their support for the flag and moving for it's removal. Or the Republican speaker of Mississippi saying it might be time to box the flag and put up a new one without the Confederate battle flag on it. How about the Republican Alabama governor, who ordered Confederate flags taken down? Every day more and more politicians and presidential candidates come out against the flag, and a large proportion of them are conservative and Republican.

I doubt, from what I've seen over the last decade from the GOP, they put that much moral thought into it. It's far more likely that they had no choice except to flee altogether from the Dixie flag because what Dylann Roof did was so disgusting that they weren't going to escape from guilt by association when the flag got unfurled or was seen on stage with them during campaign stops in the South. It'll be the same some time in the future when they abandon the denialist stupidity over climate change and go "yeah, we're against it too". It'll happen because fact will eventually beat out talking points and they won't have anywhere to hide from the obvious anymore. It'll just be too politically damaging to stick with the nonsense into perpetuity.