[martin14]

Delwin Delwin:

I'm just curious as to how badly your wiring is fried.

Not 1 / 10th as bad as yours is.

[Delwin]

Does everyone agree that it is virtually impossible to accidentally kill 1200 people over the course of 2 weeks ? I think it is fair to say at this point that this can only be classified as reckless endangerment or pure malice. No?

I mean you don't just accidentally kill 1200 innocent civilians unless you are aiming for them or ignoring their presence. Either is an indication of a very immoral mandate.

[Gunnair]

Yeah but they're not 1200 of 'their' people.

[N_Fiddledog]

$1:

Hamas is a threat to Palestinians


By Sayeh Hassan, Ottawa Citizen


While ground-level coverage of the conflict between Israel and Hamas has been extensive, far too few in the media have asked Hamas spokesmen an obvious question: Why?

Why did Hamas instigate this war by firing hundreds of missiles and mortar shells in the weeks before Israel launched its operation? Why is Hamas continuing to launch missiles despite Israel’s largely successful efforts to shoot them down with the Iron Dome system? Why, on July 15, did Hamas reject an Egyptian ceasefire plan that was endorsed by the United Nations, accepted by Israel, and would have prevented the ground incursion in the first place? And why is Hamas continuing a conflict it is clearly losing and for which its fellow Palestinians have paid so dear a price?

These questions cannot be answered without a clear-eyed examination of Hamas’ motivations and those of one of its chief sponsors: the Islamic Republic of Iran. As an Iranian-Canadian who is deeply involved in the Iranian democracy movement, it has become all too clear to me that the Israel-Hamas war is just the latest painful symptom of the burgeoning relationship between Tehran and Palestinian terrorist groups. Tragically, Israelis and Gazans suffer as a result.

On July 23, Ayatollah Khamenei called for the arming of Palestinian terrorist groups in the West Bank. This should not be seen as an empty threat, given the fact that many of more than 2,000 missiles fired at Israel in recent weeks were either supplied by Iran or made in Gaza with Iranian technology. It is particularly disturbing to think of the devastating results – for both sides – were Hamas able to fire missiles from locations like Bethlehem, Ramallah, and the hills outside Jerusalem.

In the same remarks, Khamenei declared: “The armed resistance by the Palestinians is the only way to confront Israel … the only way to solve this problem is full annihilation and destruction of the Zionist regime.” By this, of course, Khamenei means the end of Israel: a member state of the United Nations and the only advanced democracy in the Middle East. It is on this point where Hamas and Tehran are kindred spirits.

The Hamas Covenant states that all of Palestine (in which it includes Israel) must be governed under Sharia Law and cannot be ceded to a non-Islamic state. Article 13 of the Covenant further declares: “Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement … There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through jihad.”

Imagine how these words read to Gazans who want nothing more than for their children to enjoy peace, prosperity, and the everyday benefits that come with liberal democracy. Further consider how this rejectionist language (and the violence it inspires) undermines Palestinian moderates who have eschewed violence and embraced the path of negotiations with Israel.

After Israel evacuated its citizens and soldiers from Gaza in 2005, Hamas was able to seize control of the territory in less than two years. How long would it take an emboldened Hamas, with Iranian backing, to do likewise should Israel withdraw from the West Bank? Such a prospect is as much a threat to Mahmoud Abbas and moderate Palestinians as it is to Israelis.

Many who have watched the conflict over the past few weeks have made the fundamental error of viewing it as a national struggle between Israelis versus Palestinians. In reality, an extremist segment of the Palestinian leadership – Hamas along with other terror groups – has effectively hijacked the Palestinian national movement in the name of Islamism.

The agenda isn’t about securing Palestinian rights or opposing Israeli policies; it’s about securing an Islamic state and opposing Israel’s existence. The vision offered by Hamas, and paid for by Iran, cannot be detached from what has happened in Iraq and Syria, and the ongoing battle between Sunni jihadis and Shia jihadis across the region.

Having lived under the sort of regime Hamas intends to create in Gaza, I know firsthand that Hamas is foremost a threat to the Palestinians themselves. And I know that, while Israelis may be Tehran’s sworn enemy, the Palestinian people are nothing more than pawns in the radical scheme of Iran’s ayatollahs.

http://www.leaderpost.com/news/world/Sa ... story.html

[Delwin]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Yeah but they're not 1200 of 'their' people.

That's true, in total over the last 25 years, there haven't been 1200 Israeli's killed by Palestinians and most of them were soldiers. So in 2 weeks, they have killed more innocent civilians than the total number of Israeli's that have been killed since before the year 2000, and more civilians than have been killed on the Israeli side in over 40 years

This is clearly not about the preservation of life. This is about the billions spent in the development of the settlements built on Palestinian land. They will kill, maim and torture rather than have to discuss giving up what they rightfully stole. They simply can't afford to right this wrong. They built their shed in their neighbors backyard, and they are going to defend it come hell or high water.

[commanderkai]

Delwin Delwin:

Does everyone agree that it is virtually impossible to accidentally kill 1200 people over the course of 2 weeks ? I think it is fair to say at this point that this can only be classified as reckless endangerment or pure malice. No?

I mean you don't just accidentally kill 1200 innocent civilians unless you are aiming for them or ignoring their presence. Either is an indication of a very immoral mandate.

Are you fucking serious right now? If Israel truly was aiming for civilians, or ignored their presence, then the civilian death total would be 100 times higher. Hamas, again, is using civilian infrastructure, like schools, hospitals, residential structures, mosques, and just about everything else as bunkers, command posts, weapon and munition storage facilities, weapon launch sites, and locations for tunnel entrances. If Israel had no qualms about civilian casualties, then Israel would destroy any such location, no matter the time of day or care about any warning.

I mean, fuck, Hamas' military wing uses a chunk of a hospital as a base of operations and command center, and seemingly a rocket launch site, and the facility is still intact, specifically because Israel is trying to avoid needless civilian causalities, and Hamas knows that too.
Edit: Because you have another gem of stupidity:

$1:

This is clearly not about the preservation of life. This is about the billions spent in the development of the settlements built on Palestinian land. They will kill, maim and torture rather than have to discuss giving up what they rightfully stole. They simply can't afford to right this wrong. They built their shed in their neighbors backyard, and they are going to defend it come hell or high water.

Oh you mean those settlements Israel forcibly evacuated in 2005? Yeah, those ones. There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza and there haven't been in 9 years. There is no "preservation" of settlements in Palestinian land when it comes to this current conflict. It has to deal with the security of Israeli land, and Israeli citizens near Gaza who have been under constant threat of rocket and mortar attack, and seemingly Hamas was also building an extensive tunnel network to target said civilian populations.

Or are you foolish enough to think those were gestures of peaceful cooperation?

[Delwin]

Complete poppycock. Is it difficult for you to understand that Israel must keep up international appearances and can't carpet bomb the whole territory ? Because it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

They have to continue to make this look like a nice civilized military operation, or they lose support for the war, killing and maiming as they go. It's called propaganda.

Who gives a shit if they gave up the Gaza settlements and who knows the reasons for it ? Was it difficult to defend ? Would they have been putting Israeli's lives at risk by maintaining them ? They ended the siege and could no longer offer safety to the settlements.


Gaza is Palestinian land, West bank is Palestinian land. It is foolish to not think a settlement on one is not the same as a settlement on the other.

You act as though there should be gratitude for the action. "Oh look, we gave back 5% of the land we took, and they are still angry, I don't get it. I am dumb"

And your suggestion that the hospital is a base of operations is unfounded, please back it up.

Also, the whole human shields angle has become the be all and end all justification for the deaths and is another crock, the population density of Gaza is 9713/sq.mile so lets not pretend that Hamas is supposed to find an open field and call the Israeli army over for a fight. "Hey guys, our lands are being invaded lets get out into the open where they can see us, we want to be as ineffective and easy to kill as possible."

There aren't any open fields, this isn't Braveheart.

If I shot a rocket right now and ran into a hospital, no army has the right to blow up the hospital. End of story.

It would still be illegal if it was a military hospital.

[desertdude]

[commanderkai]

Delwin Delwin:

Complete poppycock. Is it difficult for you to understand that Israel must keep up international appearances and can't carpet bomb the whole territory ? Because it doesn't seem to be sinking in.

No, but seemingly you have a difficult time understanding that civilian casualties will still be high, considering the type of environment Hamas built its infrastructure in. Even then, Israel, and everybody else knows that mosques, hospitals, schools, and other civilian infrastructure is being used by Hamas, and yet Israel doesn't just bomb them upon discovery.

Breaking news, urban warfare against a paramilitary organization in a major urban center will result in high civilian casualties, no matter how cautious you are. You're the one claiming that Israel is either not trying to prevent, or not caring about civilian casualties. If Israel did not want to prevent civilian casualties, then they wouldn't, and the death toll would be magnitudes higher specifically because of how Hamas operates.

$1:

They have to continue to make this look like a nice civilized military operation, or they lose support for the war, killing and maiming as they go. It's called propaganda.

Right, which explains why Hamas specifically uses civilian infrastructure, to protect their fighters and infrastructure because they know full well Israel is conducting civilized warfare, and will not wantonly carpet bomb whole neighborhoods.

$1:

Who gives a shit if they gave up the Gaza settlements and who knows the reasons for it ? Was it difficult to defend ? Would they have been putting Israeli's lives at risk by maintaining them ? They ended the siege and could no longer offer safety to the settlements.

Gaza is Palestinian land, West bank is Palestinian land. It is foolish to not think a settlement on one is not the same as a settlement on the other.

YOU ARE PUTTING UP THE ARGUMENT THAT THIS CONFLICT WAS TO PROTECT ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS IN PALESTINIAN TERRITORY. Except, and breaking news (from 9 fucking years ago), there are no Israeli settlements in Gaza, where the fighting is taking place. So, why the fuck is this conflict about, as you idiotically claim:

$1:

This is about the billions spent in the development of the settlements built on Palestinian land. They will kill, maim and torture rather than have to discuss giving up what they rightfully stole. They simply can't afford to right this wrong. They built their shed in their neighbors backyard, and they are going to defend it come hell or high water.

When there are no settlements in Gaza for Israel to protect, and the West Bank is pacified enough for Israel to not worry about it nearly as much? This conflict is for Israel to protect Israeli civilians in Israeli land, considering the sheer amount of rocket fire, mortar fire, and tunnel exits all are clearly focused on Israel proper.

$1:

And your suggestion that the hospital is a base of operations is unfounded, please back it up.

Oh are you serious? Here:

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/24/fr ... -hospital/

The original article is in French, so I figured I'd give you an English translation.

$1:

Also, the whole human shields angle has become the be all and end all justification for the deaths and is another crock, the population density of Gaza is 9713/sq.mile so lets not pretend that Hamas is supposed to find an open field and call the Israeli army over for a fight. "Hey guys, our lands are being invaded lets get out into the open where they can see us, we want to be as ineffective and easy to kill as possible."

Yeah, that's the ONLY reason why Hamas doesn't engage in symmetrical warfare with Israel. Certainly the fact that Israel would crush them utterly has absolutely no effect on their strategic planning. Nope.

Hamas chose the battlefield they want to fight in. They specifically use civilian infrastructure to store munitions, to fire long range rockets, to use for bunkers and tunnels. So how is it Israel's fault for somehow being stuck in engaging their enemy where their enemy is?

$1:

If I shot a rocket right now and ran into a hospital, no army has the right to blow up the hospital. End of story.

It would still be illegal if it was a military hospital.

And it's illegal for you to even run into that fucking hospital in the first place, but obviously, when dealing with people who have absolutely no qualms about civilian casualties then obviously civilian casualties are going to happen. Hamas specifically chooses these locations, like schools, and mosques, and hospitals, and just about everywhere else specifically to try to maximize collateral damage.

[xerxes]

Yes and Israel certainly olbiges Hamas by killing civilians.

[BartSimpson]

Delwin Delwin:

Does everyone agree that it is virtually impossible to accidentally kill 1200 people over the course of 2 weeks ? I think it is fair to say at this point that this can only be classified as reckless endangerment or pure malice. No?

I mean you don't just accidentally kill 1200 innocent civilians unless you are aiming for them or ignoring their presence. Either is an indication of a very immoral mandate.

Tell me you're just pretending to be an all-out f*ckwit with this comment? Are you really so damnably ignorant of history to not know that innocents inevitably get themselves killed during wars, especially wars that take place in urban battlefields?

And you're also ignoring the fact that Hamas' own missiles that fall short are also killing people in Gaza. In defense of Hamas I hope that they don't intend to harm their own people yet this is happening and I don't attribute any malice to them because of it. Nor do I attribute malice to the Israelis because their valid military targets happen to be in one of the most densely populated parts of the entire Middle East.

The fact that the Israelis are sacrificing their young people to go into Gaza to secure the Qassam missiles is proof of their concern for innocent life in Gaza. Were it my decision to make I'd not put people on the ground I'd just obliterate every launch site and every storage site from the air.

By my standard the Israelis are being far too charitable towards a foe who has publicly sworn to kill everyone in Israel.

[commanderkai]

xerxes xerxes:

Yes and Israel certainly olbiges Hamas by killing civilians.

Which can't exactly be helped beyond the various extreme measures Israel already takes to prevent civilian casualties. This is a war, not a game of tag. People are going to die, and the fact that Hamas actively uses schools, homes, hospitals, mosques, and other civilian infrastructure to conceal their weapons and facilities only heightens the death toll.

How should Israel neutralize Hamas?

[BartSimpson]

xerxes xerxes:

Yes and Israel certainly olbiges Hamas by killing civilians.

Every last member of Hamas is a civilian. Gaza has no military of its own.

You need to exchange the word 'civilians' for the more accurate combatants and non-combatants or innocents.

Because I'll guarantee you that the likely majority of your civilians are not innocent.

[Delwin]

$1:

No, but seemingly you have a difficult time understanding that civilian casualties will still be high, considering the type of environment Hamas built its infrastructure in. Even then, Israel, and everybody else knows that mosques, hospitals, schools, and other civilian infrastructure is being used by Hamas, and yet Israel doesn't just bomb them upon discovery.

How do you know that they don't? They told you?

$1:

Breaking news, urban warfare against a paramilitary organization in a major urban center will result in high civilian casualties, no matter how cautious you are. You're the one claiming that Israel is either not trying to prevent, or not caring about civilian casualties. If Israel did not want to prevent civilian casualties, then they wouldn't, and the death toll would be magnitudes higher specifically because of how Hamas operates.

I am arguing that they are ignoring civilian casualties, at best at least to the extend that they can get away with publicaly. So you think 1200 causalities is being careful, I don't. You have no evidence that if they didn't "care" they death toll would be higher, I would argue that if they were careful it would be much lower, apparently most the rest of the world agrees with me.

$1:

Right, which explains why Hamas specifically uses civilian infrastructure, to protect their fighters and infrastructure because they know full well Israel is conducting civilized warfare, and will not wantonly carpet bomb whole neighborhoods.

Your opinion.

$1:

YOU ARE PUTTING UP THE ARGUMENT THAT THIS CONFLICT WAS TO PROTECT ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS IN PALESTINIAN TERRITORY. Except, and breaking news (from 9 fucking years ago), there are no Israeli settlements in Gaza, where the fighting is taking place. So, why the fuck is this conflict about, as you idiotically claim:

OK, so the battle has to take place on the settlements in order for it to be about the settlements ? Now you are just being silly. The battlefield and the reasons for conflict can exist independently from each other, just like every single war the US has fought in "defence" has never been fought on their soil.

$1:

When there are no settlements in Gaza for Israel to protect, and the West Bank is pacified enough for Israel to not worry about it nearly as much? This conflict is for Israel to protect Israeli civilians in Israeli land, considering the sheer amount of rocket fire, mortar fire, and tunnel exits all are clearly focused on Israel proper.

You are right about one thing it is about protecting Israeli land, namely the land they stole.

$1:

Oh are you serious? Here:

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/24/fr ... -hospital/

The original article is in French, so I figured I'd give you an English translation.

Not sure what this is meant to demonstate, even a military hospital is a hospital, you ever watch M.A.S.H ?

$1:

Yeah, that's the ONLY reason why Hamas doesn't engage in symmetrical warfare with Israel. Certainly the fact that Israel would crush them utterly has absolutely no effect on their strategic planning. Nope.

I stated it was because they would be ineffective. Everyone knows Israel has a stronger army, it's what enables their oppression.

$1:

Hamas chose the battlefield they want to fight in. They specifically use civilian infrastructure to store munitions, to fire long range rockets, to use for bunkers and tunnels. So how is it Israel's fault for somehow being stuck in engaging their enemy where their enemy is?

They chose nothing they can't leave. it's a prison. Haven't you heard?

$1:

And it's illegal for you to even run into that fucking hospital in the first place, but obviously, when dealing with people who have absolutely no qualms about civilian casualties then obviously civilian casualties are going to happen. Hamas specifically chooses these locations, like schools, and mosques, and hospitals, and just about everywhere else specifically to try to maximize collateral damage.

OK so it's illegal for him to do it so does that make it OK to bomb it ? The hospital has no control over my action.

[Goober911]

Call it this that or whatever.
It still has the distinctive odor of collective punishment.
Not in all cases, but more than enough.
Yes we know Hamas uses hospitals, UN schools and such.
And their rockets suck as has been shown, falling inside Gaza or missing their tagets by miles.
And their rockets have caused how much damage and dead to justify these targets?
Now the tunnels - Really- Israel knew about these since 06 or so. Spent millions to develop technology to detect including deeply laid sensors.
And no system in place.
Israel screwed the pooch on that one.

Israel will have to sit and talk with Hamas at some point.

Now with the soldier captured, Israel will be going deeper.
No trade, no exchanges, the Soldier back. Israel will be backed by Western and Arab countries. Except Qatar and Turkey, who will mince words.
The uproar in Israel over the last exchange of prisoners, with approx 600 dead on their hands was still reverberating before this latest fuckup.