[bootlegga]

eureka eureka:

I answered Peck, bootlegga. Alberta's manufacturing is strongly tied to its oil and gas industry. The parts that are not so tied are not faring well.

Exports, by their very definition leave the country, so there's no way any of it is being used in the oilsands.

eureka eureka:

Condon, btw, is a banker and a disciple of the Chicago School of economic thought. He would think that the social programmes were too generous.

He is some distance to the Right of Drummond.

My mistake, the author of the study (Boom Sector and Dutch Disease) was Corden, WM, not Condon. I admit to not having read the paper, just seeing an abstract online which mentions his findings.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Dear Alberta, this is a secret letter to ask you to keep up with the oil production. That way, I can continually blame you for my abyssmal performance in Ontario as well as the sagging economy instead of reflecting on my own ham-fisted actions.

Sincerely,
Dalton.

[OnTheIce]

eureka eureka:

It begs certain questions. One is whether their opinions are worth anything anyway if that is the limit of their debating reach.

You think McGuinty has been a great leader for Ontario....so we all know what your opinion is worth.

[bootlegga]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Alberta’s manufacturing sector is not nearly as diversified as Ontario's and is basically a niche focused on serving the energy sector and basic staples. It's only the 5th largest sector in a province of 4 million (lagging behind Energy, Environment, Forestry and Agriculture).

The biggest manufacturing category in Alberta is petroleum and coal products ($1.6 billion), which includes all the stuff that refineries in the province pump out. Other important categories are chemicals ($1.1 billion), machinery ($740 million) and fabricated metal ($500 million). The two main categories that are not related to the energy sector are food ($954 million) and wood and paper manufacturing ($329 million).

Sorry, but you're incorrect.

Again, my question was why have Alberta's manufactured EXPORTS increased by 13% while Ontario's have fallen. And the Alberta government does NOT classify petroleum or coal as manufactured goods, they classify as energy & mining products.

Alberta's manufactured EXPORTED goods are now dominated by chemicals, followed by food & beverages, machinery and finally electronics.

0:

exports.jpg [ 62.4 KiB | Viewed 695 times ]

http://albertacanada.com/documents/SP-E ... review.pdf

[bootlegga]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Dear Alberta, this is a secret letter to ask you to keep up with the oil production. That way, I can continually blame you for my abyssmal performance in Ontario as well as the sagging economy instead of reflecting on my own ham-fisted actions.

Sincerely,
Dalton.

[BeaverFever]

Well read that article:

$1:

Exports of manufactured goods grew strongly by 32% between 2000 and 2008. However, in 2009 the value of these exports fell by 24%, due to the global recession which reduced both export volumes and commodity prices, back to a level only marginally higher than the 2000 value.

...In other words, the same case as Ontario, including your own in-house Dutch Disease.

Further:

$1:

The mix of manufacturing exports has changed dramatically over that period. In 2000, computers and
electronics was Alberta’s largest export manufacturing sector with $4.5 billion in exports, most of it
telecommunication equipment. However, this sector has fallen on hard times and exports have declined
steadily. By 2010 the export value had fallen by 88%, compared to the 2000 value, and this sector was
trailing seven other sectors in 2010.

Exports of chemicals more than doubled between 2000 and 2008 to $8 billion. In 2009, the value of
chemical exports fell by one-third (due to the global recession which reduced export volumes and
especially commodity prices) back to a level that was slightly lower than the 2004 value.

Machinery

The largest sub-sector is agricultural, construction and mining machinery, which is dominated by oil and
gas related machinery in Alberta. It accounted for $1 billion or 42% of machinery exports in 2010, up
from $270 million or a 30% share in 2000. The largest export commodity group is oil and gas field
boring and sinking machinery (including parts) with a value of $720 million in 2010, up from $115
million in 2000. Other large export commodities include lifting, handling, loading or unloading
machinery (e.g. well servicing rigs or derricks - $100 million in 2010) and parts for derricks and cranes
($65 million).
The second largest sub-sector is other general-purpose machinery with $570 million in exports in 2010,
more than three times the 2000 value. Oil well and oil field pumps and parts for pumps are the largest commodity group with $310 million in exports in 2010, followed by air and gas compressors ($70
million) and pulleys and tackles ($60 million). commodity group with $310 million in exports in 2010, followed by air and gas compressors ($70
million) and pulleys and tackles ($60 million).

[peck420]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Well read that article:

$1:

Exports of manufactured goods grew strongly by 32% between 2000 and 2008. However, in 2009 the value of these exports fell by 24%, due to the global recession which reduced both export volumes and commodity prices, back to a level only marginally higher than the 2000 value.

...In other words, the same case as Ontario, including your own in-house Dutch Disease.

Wrong.

If commodity prices fell, it wasn't Dutch Disease now was it?

Dutch Disease is based on the argument that manufacturing will decline due to the increase in commodity prices and the effect that those commodity prices will have on the dollar.

The chart quite clearly shows that our manufacturing increased while our dollar increased. Only to have both fall sharply when the global recession hit.

That is called a recession..oh wait, it's already labelled that.

Dutch Disease.

$1:

The mechanism is that an increase in revenues from natural resources (or inflows of foreign aid) will make a given nation's currency stronger compared to that of other nations (manifest in an exchange rate), resulting in the nation's other exports becoming more expensive for other countries to buy, making the manufacturing sector less competitive.

[DrCaleb]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Who do you think is funding all this "waste management" tech and what do you think that is? Don't you read or watch all the oilsands propaganda about how they are cleaning and greening their operations, restoring tailings ponds to "natural habitat", etc?

Non-Sequitr.

What makes you think Civil waste management (sewers, landfils) has anything to do with the oilsands?

Like we said, eastern knee jerk reaction. Alberta = Oilsand = Bad. That's why McGuinty brought it up to begin with! It buys him political points to point to somone else and say 'Look there! They are worse! Ignore the bad stuff all around you that I am doing! Look! Shiny!".

[bootlegga]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Well read that article:

$1:

Exports of manufactured goods grew strongly by 32% between 2000 and 2008. However, in 2009 the value of these exports fell by 24%, due to the global recession which reduced both export volumes and commodity prices, back to a level only marginally higher than the 2000 value.

...In other words, the same case as Ontario, including your own in-house Dutch Disease.

Perhaps you should take your own advice...the prices and volumes dropped due to the recession, which affected petty much everyone on the planet, not Dutch Disease as you argue...

Further the article notes, manufactured exports have risen by 13% since 2000 and rebounded by 12% in 2010 (this was the very next line in the paragraph you quoted BTW).

$1:

Manufacturing exports rebounded by 12% in 2010[/b] to $20 billion[b] and exceeded the 2000 level by 13%.

And while the numbes aren't in yet, I'd also be willing to bet that 2011 was a better year than 2009 also and that exports increased as well. Meanwhile, since 2000 Ontario's have plummeted. So what gives?

[BeaverFever]

1) Well I guess I missed the word "BOTH" in that clause and read it as "exports fell due to recession and commodity prices" so mea culpa on Dutch disease. BUT how come when your manufacturing falls due to recession its ok but when Ontario's falls due to recessions its because were a pathetic dinosaur economy? As you pointed out, its a global recession.

2) Interpreting the above as you suggest, it says that Alberta manufacturing fell because of a decline in commodity prices. This only shows that your manufacturing is in fact tied to your commodity (oil and gas) industry and is in fact not a stand-alone industry. Everywhere else in NA, decline in commodity prices is GOOD for manufacturing because materials are cheaper.

3) I'm not saying Oil = bad. I'm saying Alberta economy = oil money. If the oilsands disappeared tomorrow, so would much of your other sectors because they are so reliant on doing business with the oil industry.

[andyt]

Norway has 500 billion of it's oil money invested outside the country to prevent Dutch disease. Why do we think we can avoid it when we don't take steps like that?

[eureka]

Actually, bootlegga, the Dutch disease set in almost ten years ago. It has nothing to do with the recession.

And Alberta's non petro chemical exports are suffering. A further decline in manufacturing employment is forecast for Alberta this year.

Interestingly, a survey in Alberta a year or two ago found that well more than half of Albertans say they are not benefiting form Alberta's "prosperity." They have jobs but they have declining real incomes because of Alberta's homegrown inflation.

[bootlegga]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

1) Well I guess I missed the word "BOTH" in that clause and read it as "exports fell due to recession and commodity prices" so mea culpa on Dutch disease. BUT how come when your manufacturing falls due to recession its ok but when Ontario's falls due to recessions its because were a pathetic dinosaur economy? As you pointed out, its a global recession.

I never said Ontario was a dinsoaur economy or anything else. If, as you suggest, manufacturing is on the rebound, please post it and I'll be the first to congratulate you guys. Frankly, that would be great news for all of Canada. Believe it or not, Albertans want everyone to be a have province, not a have-not province.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2) Interpreting the above as you suggest, it says that Alberta manufacturing fell because of a decline in commodity prices. This only shows that your manufacturing is in fact tied to your commodity (oil and gas) industry and is in fact not a stand-alone industry. Everywhere else in NA, decline in commodity prices is GOOD for manufacturing because materials are cheaper.

I don't see it that way - I see it as exports of everything fell in 2009 due to the recession, and as econmies recover, exports have picked up again. Alberta, like most of Canada, is an exporter of goods - energy, agricultural products, manufactured goods, etc. Our production of most items far outstrips our own needs.

And the drop in prices was good for Alberta in one way - it let us get to work on infrastructure projects which had been slowed or postponed due to a lack of labour and materials.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

3) I'm not saying Oil = bad. I'm saying Alberta economy = oil money. If the oilsands disappeared tomorrow, so would much of your other sectors because they are so reliant on doing business with the oil industry.

That's definitely true - the il industry is still the elephant in the room despite the government's plans to diversify the Alberta economy - it still largely a resource-based economy here (agriculture, forestry, and energy). Still, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, as we taken steps in nanotech, biotech, and a variety of non-resource based industries to try and get us out of the boom-bust cycle (which most Albertans hate).

[BeaverFever]

bootlegga bootlegga:

I never said Ontario was a dinsoaur economy or anything else. If, as you suggest, manufacturing is on the rebound, please post it and I'll be the first to congratulate you guys. Frankly, that would be great news for all of Canada. Believe it or not, Albertans want everyone to be a have province, not a have-not province.

Oh, I never meant to suggest Ontario manufacturing is on the rebound...I'm sure some segments of the sector are but I don't know if that's the case on the whole

$1:

I don't see it that way - I see it as exports of everything fell in 2009 due to the recession, and as econmies recover, exports have picked up again. Alberta, like most of Canada, is an exporter of goods - energy, agricultural products, manufactured goods, etc. Our production of most items far outstrips our own needs.

I'm sure it does - but the report specifically identfies low commodity prices as one of the causes of manufacturing decline.

[Yogi]

Redford wants McGuinty to apologize

By JACKIE L. LARSON ,Edmonton Sun
First posted: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 04:20 PM MST | Updated: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 05:09 PM MST

With a bit of back-pedaling on Wednesday, Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty retreated awkwardly from his rant against Alberta oil earlier in the week.

“I think I should clarify,” McGuinty began, addressing his own remarks about “standing with” Ontario manufacturing jobs over Alberta’s “petro dollars” that strengthen the Canadian dollar to Ontario’s detriment.

“I work in real time so sometimes I may not self-edit before I go to press, so to speak,” McGuinty said.

The slam irked Premier Alison Redford and prompted the Alberta leader to ask for an apology Wednesday.

Instead of making the premier available to talk to media, Reford’s office provided her statement to Edmonton media outlets via an audio file of an early morning radio appearance on the Corus Radio Network Wednesday.

Asked if the Ontario premier needs to apologize, Redford said yes.

“I think he does, too,” she said.

McGuinty may not be keen on Albertan resources, but others in Ontario are, said Redford, who recently spoke with business leaders in Ontario and Quebec.

“That might be the perspective that he had on Monday, but in terms of corporate leadership and industry leadership in Ontario, they understand the importance of the oilsands and Alberta’s resources and how important that is to the economy,” Redford said, adding that McGuinty needs to frame up his province’s economic problems differently.

“There’s really tough circumstances there,” she said, pointing to Ontario’s record of spending, debt and high deficits.

“What we’re saying is we give you an economy that’s an opportunity to deal with some of that.”

“I know Ontario is in difficult economic circumstances right now, but the way to get out of those is to grow your economy and the Canadian Energy Strategy gives you the opportunity to do that,” she said.

And the strong Canadian dollar, buoyed by U.S. economic woes?

“We’re exporters as well. It concerns us when the dollar’s high — it’s not as lucrative for us. We face the same issues in Alberta,” Redford said.

In his retrenching statement Wednesday, McGuinty expressed solidarity, citing his province’s hefty population of 13 million Ontarians.

“We have a strong sense of partnership with Canadians from coast to coast to coast and I want to assure Canadians living in other parts of the country that we’re going to continue to do our part here in Ontario, as committed Canadians to strengthen our national economy,” McGuinty said, comparing Canada’s 10 provinces to his family of 10 kids and the need to “play to your own strengths.”

Asked about a Canadian Energy Strategy, something Redford has been touting pre-election, McGuinty acknowledged he had talked with the Alberta premier about it.

“I think where we can make common cause if we talk about a national energy strategy, I’d like to take a look at that in a broader context. I’d like that to officially include a clean energy strategy and the work that we’re doing here in Ontario and I’d like to broaden the vision so it’s one that we can all share right across the country.

“I’m talking about expanding out vision of energy in Canada so it includes a clean energy vision as well. I think they can grow strong in their way, and that’s good for all of us and we can grow strong in our way. That’s good for all Canadians too,” McGuinty said.