[ShepherdsDog]

The arabs living in Israel, are called Israelis, not Palestinians...and they serve as volunteers in the IDF, predominantly in restive Arab areas on the West Bank and near Gaza. Along with the Druze and the Bedouin, there are between two and three thousand arabs in the IDF. They also suffer at the hands of the terrorists as well

[eureka]

And where will their loyalties lie when it happens?

[ShepherdsDog]

A few years ago they polled Israeli Arabs about what they would do if a 'Palestinian ' state was created.

$1:

Mitchell Barak,Managing Director of KEEVOON: "The survey challenges the widely held claim that Israeli Arabs have national aspirations for statehood. Most expressed a desire to remain Israeli when given a choice. The results of the survey also demonstrated a gap between policies articulated by the Government and the citizens it would affect most. While senior members of the Government (including Foreign Minister Livni) have spoken openly about a future Palestinian State possibly including Israeli Arabs who live in Israel, most Israeli Arabs prefer to remain Israeli citizens."

The strongest support for remaining citizens of Israel was exhibited by members of the Druse community, 84% of whom would choose Israel. Lower income households also showed strong support with 71% of them choosing Israel. Men were more likely than women to choose to remain Israeli citizens (67% vs. 56%).

let's see...belong to a third world autocracy where corruption is endemic, or remain part of a first world nation, which has been your home for generations that actually has laws.....hmmm such a hard choice

[FieryVulpine]

eureka eureka:

As for Israel being under constant threat, that is a bit rich. Stone throwing boys against tanks and modern weapons.

Guess you missed the part where Hamas launches rockets at Israeli civilians and murder children and toddlers in their sleep. That's easy to overlook when you're stroking your own ego.

eureka eureka:

I don't recall the ratio of deaths, but there are many times as many Palestinians killed as Israelis. Many times.

That's what happens when the Palestinians use their own civilians as human shields.

eureka eureka:

The thing about all this is that there is no other conclusion than that the Israelis are illegally occupying territory and brutally oppressing the indigenous people.

Yeah, because we know that Israeli men are kidnapping, raping, and murdering Palestinian women-- oh wait, that's Egypt and their Coptic population or maybe I'm confusing them with Pakistan and Iran. Hard to tell when the Islamic countries are finding new ways to brutalize their minorities.

eureka eureka:

Payback is inevitable. Israel is building a catastrophe for its future. If another war were to start now with the neighbouring Arab countries, just think about those three million or so Palestinians who either live in Israel or in the occupied territories: literally a stone's throw away. It wouold need half of Israel's forces to keep them under control.

Then we have the "Samson Option" when Israel's back is against the wall. Israel falls but we'll see some man-made sunshine over several Arab cities.

[eureka]

I missed no part, FV. The Hamas rockets have been ineffective and the ratio is still many times the number of Arabs killed for every Israeli. Pehaps, Hamas could be given a few tanks so that they could bulldoze some Israeli homes with the inhabitants in them.

What this has to do with my ego escapes me. It was a rather foolish expression. And the Samson option! I never believed it.

[FieryVulpine]

eureka eureka:

I missed no part, FV. The Hamas rockets have been ineffective and the ratio is still many times the number of Arabs killed for every Israeli. Pehaps, Hamas could be given a few tanks so that they could bulldoze some Israeli homes with the inhabitants in them.

It has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the rocket attacks. The fact that they deliberately target civilians where Israel show remarkable restraint on their part shows that Israel has the moral high ground, despite Hamas using their civilians as human shields to maximize collateral damage. Especially when the cowards hide in mosques and hospitals.

eureka eureka:

What this has to do with my ego escapes me. It was a rather foolish expression.

Your tone suggests that you care more for satisfying your own than you actually do for the Palestinians. A common trait among the leftists because they love exploiting the "downtrodden" for their own self-satisfaction.

At least I am being sincere when I say I don't give a flying **** about the Palestinians.

eureka eureka:

And the Samson option! I never believed it.

What you believe is irrelevant. Israel has long had the capacity to create a nuclear arsenal but never confirmed it. Given their precarious situation, I would not be surprised if they had some contingency plan.

[Bacardi4206]

desertdude desertdude:

Yes the Warsaw Ghetto was also to protect the Third Reich.

You're the only one comparing Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto and Israel to Nazi's. I am not sure what relevance this has to the current situation. The Israel - Palestine conflict has nothing to do with that. Maybe you like it because you get to compare to Israel to nazi's maybe? Would be kinda a failed and harsh comparison being those who are Israeli Jewish suffered the harshest thing in human history at the hands of them.

[Bacardi4206]

eureka eureka:

You are still on the wrong side, Bacardi. There is no state of war when there is only one state. Palestine is not a state but an occupied territory. The Palestinian action is a resistance to occupation.

Therefore, the blockade is illegal under International Law.

As for Israel being under constant threat, that is a bit rich. Stone throwing boys against tanks and modern weapons.

I don't recall the ratio of deaths, but there are many times as many Palestinians killed as Israelis. Many times.

The thing about all this is that there is no other conclusion than that the Israelis are illegally occupying territory and brutally oppressing the indigenous people.

Payback is inevitable. Israel is building a catastrophe for its future. If another war were to start now with the neighbouring Arab countries, just think about those three million or so Palestinians who either live in Israel or in the occupied territories: literally a stone's throw away. It wouold need half of Israel's forces to keep them under control.

My side is the right side actually, facts and common sense state so but whatever you say. Also Israel is a state, which is being attacked by a group created by Palestinians who's goal is not resistance of Israeli military occupation but rather the destruction of Israel. Israel has in the past removed military occupation and given control of areas to the Palestinians. Only to be met by suicide bombers and continued hostilities. Israel military occupation is necessary to meet violence. Though maybe you also think Al Quada is a resistance force to, to all the western meddling into the middle-east. Because Al Quada and Hamas have the same war tactics. Hide behinds innocent women and children, while targeting the civilians of there target nations. Yeah, that's real resistance right there.

Stone throwing boys? Maybe Israeli settlers have to worry about that where they stone settler women and there infant children. Yeah that's a real thing, constant reports of Israeli women settlers who have there infant children having thrown rocks at them with there childrens face bleeding but for Israel, I'd think they are more worried about suicide bombers, rocket attacks, and small arms fire but you're right, just because Israel has a the technological advantage. What threat do they honestly possess? Like the Taliban in Afghanistan. They don't have tanks, APC's, Helicopters or even numbers on there side yet they possess a serious problem for ISAF troops and casualties. Something Israel faces on a daily bases right on there own doorstep while we watch the Afghanistan war from a computer miles away.

You finally get one fact right, congrats. Yes Palestinians have a higher death rate than Israeli's. Not suprising since the Palestinians have a bunch of reckless militia types while Israel has the IDF. Israel does a great job with it's security, infact it's airports have never had a terrorist incident because it's so greatly secured and is hailed as the best protected airports in the world. Israel is all about defense and security. The fact Israeli suffers less losses is of no shock to me neither does Palestinians dieing. When you have a organization dedicated to "protecting you". As they launch attacks in Israel from civilian sectors waiting for Israel retaliation, that's pretty tough for Israel to silence these attacks without taking down some homes that Hamas fight from. You want those deaths to reduce? Contact hamas and ask them politely to stop using peoples homes to launch attacks from or hiding out in hospitals and mosques in hopes Israel won't attack them there.

Also brutally opressing them? Oh shit, don't make me laugh.

[martin14]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

desertdude desertdude:

Yes the Warsaw Ghetto was also to protect the Third Reich.

You're the only one comparing Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto and Israel to Nazi's. I am not sure what relevance this has to the current situation. The Israel - Palestine conflict has nothing to do with that. Maybe you like it because you get to compare to Israel to nazi's maybe? Would be kinda a failed and harsh comparison being those who are Israeli Jewish suffered the harshest thing in human history at the hands of them.

DD likes it because of the collaboration the Palestinians did with the Nazi's during WW2.

You know, he's familiar with the topics.

[Wada]

The people I feel for are those who just want to live and raise their families in peace. Whether Jew or Arab they are the ones suffering from this conflict.

[ShepherdsDog]

The interesting thing is that your moderate Arabs, who also tended to be your educated and industrious ones, have been leaving the ME, including the West bank for a couple of generations. The funny thing is they were almost overwhelmingly Christian. They didn't like the Arab Israeli conflict, and they didn't like the Muslims dominating the political scene....which resulted in many Christian Arabs being persecuted.

Oh and before I forget....Shana Tova U'metukah!!!

[Curtman]

FieryVulpine FieryVulpine:

It has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the rocket attacks. The fact that they deliberately target civilians where Israel show remarkable restraint on their part shows that Israel has the moral high ground, despite Hamas using their civilians as human shields to maximize collateral damage. Especially when the cowards hide in mosques and hospitals.

Who is a civilian in Israel which has conscription?

[martin14]

Curtman Curtman:

Who is a civilian in Israel which has conscription?

And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the dumbest post of the week award winner !

[bootlegga]

eureka eureka:

bootlegga bootlegga:

desertdude desertdude:

Yes I can see how they hold 80% of the land

Nice map - ever notice how the dates on it coincide with wars the Arabs started to wipe Israel out.

While I sympathize with the Palestinians and their plight, the fact is that they (and the rest of the Arab world) started a couple of wars with Israel, and lost that territory mostly as a consequence of said wars. Israel has even returned other territory it gained in conflict, like the entire Sinai peninsula.

Had the Arabs really wanted to help the Palestinians out, they could easily have ceded some land to them to settle. Instead, they used them as a PR tool to point to the world at how bad Israel is.

I don't agree with Israel authorizing these new settlements, but I also think that the problem could have been solved decades ago if the Arabs didn't want to see Israel wiped off the map.

The problem with that is that the Arab States consider themselves justified in starting those wars. They do not see it that way, either. They consider the presence of Israel on traditional Palestinian lands as an ongoing act of war. To them, Israel is an imposition of the Great powers on lands seized from the Arabs.

After this length of time, it does not matter what the right and wrong of that is. Realistically, Israel is, and will remain, even if it requires more and more protection from those same powers that enabled it - as it will.

Now, the settlement of the question has to be that of the pre 1967 proposals. There can be no other or there will be a permanent state of war that will wear Israel down if left on its own. It is the shortsightedness of Israel that is preventing that.

Frankly, I don't care that the Arabs felt justified in starting those wars. They started those wars (and subsequently lost them), so it's a matter of being responsible for one's own actions.

Who says it has to be based on pre-1967 proposals or there will be war?

The Palestinians? The Arabs? They are free to try, but everytime they've gone to war with Israel, they've not only lost, but lost badly. Hell, Israelis forces almost captured Damascus in '73.

If the Palestinians really want peace and a homeland (and I skeptical that they really want that), then they have to NEGOTIATE just like everyone else. They've tried all sorts of endruns about the Israelis over the past half century (war, insurgency, protests, etc) and they've always failed.

Time to step up to the plate like a man and deal with the situation at hand instead of whining to the umpire that the guy throwing the ball is aiming low and away instead of over the plate.

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

bootlegga bootlegga:

While I sympathize with the Palestinians and their plight, the fact is that they (and the rest of the Arab world) started a couple of wars with Israel, and lost that territory mostly as a consequence of said wars. Israel has even returned other territory it gained in conflict, like the entire Sinai peninsula.

Had the Arabs really wanted to help the Palestinians out, they could easily have ceded some land to them to settle. Instead, they used them as a PR tool to point to the world at how bad Israel is.

I don't agree with Israel authorizing these new settlements, but I also think that the problem could have been solved decades ago if the Arabs didn't want to see Israel wiped off the map.

Doesn't answer the question of what to do now. Do you really want to see the Palestinians pushed into the Jordan?

The US has given Israel carte blanche in how it behaves. US support for Israel should be contingent on not one new settlement being built and a serious push to close those already present. Otherwise let Israel look out for itself.

My point was that the Palestinians could have gone into Jordan (or Lebanon or Syria or practically anywhere else in the ME), but that the Arab nations found it better to keep a bunch of poor, homeless people wandering around for PR purposes.

The solution is to negotiate in good faith and give up the terror tactics. As long as the Palestinians resort to suicide bombings, rocket attacks and all the other BS, they allow the Israelis the opportunity to defend themselves (sometimes far more vociferously than is necessary). I wish the Israelis would show more restraint when it comes to responding to that kind of thing (I disagreed strongly with Israel's action in 2006), but as long as terrorists run the government and operate freely, Israel, like it or not, has the moral advantage.

Israel is a democracy and would leap at the chance to finally solve the problem of 150 million Arabs trying to wipe them out.

When the Palestinians come to that stage, the issue can and likely will be decided fairly quickly. Until then, they have to accept the consequences of their actions IMHO.