[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

DerbyX DerbyX:

As for Hitler, his christianity has been established beyond a doubt. Born and raised a christian. Baptized a christian (and that alone is enough by many standards), believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ (the only truly defining belief a christian has to be a christian), was never excommunicated by the Catholic church (well that doesn't mean much), and never once denied his religious beliefs.

In fact his seminal work mein kampf, containing all his most personal thoughts shows nothing bu his belief in christianity.

Face it. He was christian. That he did despicable things is simply irrelevant especially when yet another christian cherished belief is that no matter what acts a human may do all he needs to do is accept Jesus Christ as their saviour and they will be forgiven. By that yardstick not a single one of you can say who is and who is not christian since its up to your god.

At best you can say Hitler did not act like what you think a christian should act like.

Really? I've read Mein Kampf and I found VERY little in it about his personal religious beliefs. He certainly saw a need for the Church, but not for him, just for the people of Germany.
Oh but wait, he was baptized you say? Oh well then, some water on a kid's head when he's a little boy certianly makes him a devout Christian. Being dragged to church by mommy and daddy when yer a kid makes you no more a Christian than me going to an arena makes me a hockey player.
Hitler denied his "belief" by practicing and using the occult on a regular basis.
Sorry bro, but those two do NOT go hand in hand. And of course, good Christians always have priests and ministers murdered now don't they

Apparently you haven't then because in those writings he revealed everything that foretold his actions. In it he revealed his plan to expand Aryan "living space" at the expense of the Slavs (ie- the foolish attack on Russia that so few saw coming), his plan to avenge the German defeat of World War I by conquering France, his belief that all of the world's races should be subjugated under the Aryan race, and his plan to exterminate the Jews. By reading this single document, one can predict every major action Hitler would take over the next two decades including the Holocaust and the "surprise" attack on Russia, yet Christian apologists would have you believe it was nothing but a misleading propaganda
piece!

He practiced his faith in private and public no different then any other christian. He put religious prayer back into schools (of note since so many people consider taking prayer out of school is why society is going bad). His soldiers wore Gott Mit Uns (god with us) on their belts. There is simply no way to deny his christianity without resorting to the circular logic "christians don't do bad things therefore he couldn't be one".

As for good christians not murdering preists and ministers. Churches have been doing that against each other since their inception.

[DerbyX]

Yogi Yogi:

How about this for a view-point. Rather simplistic, but...

Guy from Pakistan is living the 'American Dream'. Good job. Nice home. Beautiful wife. 2.2 kids. Recession hits. Financially he loses everything. Becomes 'angry at the world, "I'll get even with those bastards who caused all my problems"....

Well some of already drawn the connection between the fact that viacom is just down the road and they broadcast South Park.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Actually, what really gets me is some of the ones that are posting are anti-religion of any kind. Like eliminating religion will be a panacea cure for the world's problems. Yep, without religion we'd all be holding hands, dancing on rainbows. Evil wouldn't exist and there'd be no war.
Nobody would be killing over oil or land, or other natural resources. Nope it's ALL religion's fault. Everything bad that ever happend in the history of mankind can be placed solely and squarely on the shoulders of religion.
And let's not forget those damn Buddhists too. Why should they get off easy!? It's all their fault we have so many insects. IF they'd start killing the annoying ones like the rest of us did, there wouldn't be as many to bug us (sorry bout the real bad pun).
Atheists? Why, they don't do anything bad or evil. Communism was a myth perpetrated by the evil American Christians. No Russian was ever murdered by the state for what he thought, said, believed or just for being alive. And let's not forget that hotbed of atheistic love and tolerance, China. Where humans are treated like gods, no one is ever abused or "disappears". A very fine example that ALL atheists should look up to and strive for.

Go you wonderful, beautiful atheists, go on to spread your message of peace and love. Show us the wonders of your utopia. I'm sure the rest of us could learn from your fine examples.
Like how Stalin managed to murder three times as many people as Hitler did and yet was still Uncle Joe during WW2. But hey, Stalin was cool. At least he wasn't religious

[Brenda]

Euhmm, I am an Atheist, but that definitely doesnt mean I think the way you describe. Yet, I feel a little attacked, while I don't think I attacked any religion here...

I don't believe in religion, personally, but whatever floats your boat...

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Actually, what really gets me is some of the ones that are posting are anti-religion of any kind. Like eliminating religion will be a panacea cure for the world's problems. Yep, without religion we'd all be holding hands, dancing on rainbows. Evil wouldn't exist and there'd be no war.
Nobody would be killing over oil or land, or other natural resources. Nope it's ALL religion's fault. Everything bad that ever happend in the history of mankind can be placed solely and squarely on the shoulders of religion.
And let's not forget those damn Buddhists too. Why should they get off easy!? It's all their fault we have so many insects. IF they'd start killing the annoying ones like the rest of us did, there wouldn't be as many to bug us (sorry bout the real bad pun).
Atheists? Why, they don't do anything bad or evil. Communism was a myth perpetrated by the evil American Christians. No Russian was ever murdered by the state for what he thought, said, believed or just for being alive. And let's not forget that hotbed of atheistic love and tolerance, China. Where humans are treated like gods, no one is ever abused or "disappears". A very fine example that ALL atheists should look up to and strive for.

Go you wonderful, beautiful atheists, go on to spread your message of peace and love. Show us the wonders of your utopia. I'm sure the rest of us could learn from your fine examples.
Like how Stalin managed to murder three times as many people as Hitler did and yet was still Uncle Joe during WW2. But hey, Stalin was cool. At least he wasn't religious

Now you are making a strawman argument since I'm not claiming any of those things. Eliminating religion wouldn't eliminate hate or war. By the same token every body adopting religion (even a single religion) wouldn't do that either.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Now you are making a strawman argument since I'm not claiming any of those things.

Why not? You've made a strawman out of every Christian on earth and you've made one out of me. I made the radical offer to off those awful Christians who are allegedly oppressing you to make the point that there are no Christians oppressing you. And there are no Christians oppressing you, you just hate Christians.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Eliminating religion wouldn't eliminate hate or war. By the same token every body adopting religion (even a single religion) wouldn't do that either.

This much I can agree with.

[andyt]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Gunnair Gunnair:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Yea, but you can't beat a good bit of English sausage mate.

A slab of Canadian bacon will every day...

I dunno, bacon seems a bit bendy compared to a good thick, firm sausage.

I dunno - those sausages seem to shrivel up under the least bit of heat.

[commanderkai]

Thanos Thanos:

That's one myth I'd certainly like to see die out. Christianity as a whole is uniquely responsible for the phenomenon of anti-Semitism/Jew-hating altogether.

What? Are you kidding? Wrong. Jew hating was a favorite past-time for any dominant culture/religion. Muslims, Christians, whatever the Romans believed, the Nazis, the Soviets, and basically anybody else who had a Jewish community in their midst basically hating them.

Making this a solely Christian phenomenon is faulty.

$1:

That it took John Paul II up into the 1990's to apologize for the historical role of Catholics in the deliberate extermination of Jews shows what that particular organization is all about.

...The hell does that mean? Well Catholic bashing is a happy past time for atheists and non-Catholic Christians alike, but come on.

$1:

Jew-hating was not an atheist phenomenon, Nazi Germany was not an atheist country, and Adolf Hitler was not even remotely close to being an atheist. He was a Christian according to the vicious standards of just about every other Christian that preceded him.

Wrong. Completely wrong. Nazi Germany was not a "Christian" country. Having churches within your country does not make you Christian, nor does having mosques in the United States makes the United States a Muslim country. Rounding up priests and sending them to Dachau is one of the most un-Christian things a "Christian" can do.

The Soviet Union was also happily anti-Semitic, even though Stalin happily destroyed churches and killing priests of the Orthodox Russian church.

[andyt]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Thanos Thanos:

That's one myth I'd certainly like to see die out. Christianity as a whole is uniquely responsible for the phenomenon of anti-Semitism/Jew-hating altogether.

What? Are you kidding? Wrong. Jew hating was a favorite past-time for any dominant culture/religion. Muslims, Christians, whatever the Romans believed, the Nazis, the Soviets, and basically anybody else who had a Jewish community in their midst basically hating them.

Making this a solely Christian phenomenon is faulty.

$1:

That it took John Paul II up into the 1990's to apologize for the historical role of Catholics in the deliberate extermination of Jews shows what that particular organization is all about.

...The hell does that mean? Well Catholic bashing is a happy past time for atheists and non-Catholic Christians alike, but come on.

$1:

Jew-hating was not an atheist phenomenon, Nazi Germany was not an atheist country, and Adolf Hitler was not even remotely close to being an atheist. He was a Christian according to the vicious standards of just about every other Christian that preceded him.

Wrong. Completely wrong. Nazi Germany was not a "Christian" country. Having churches within your country does not make you Christian, nor does having mosques in the United States makes the United States a Muslim country. Rounding up priests and sending them to Dachau is one of the most un-Christian things a "Christian" can do.

The Soviet Union was also happily anti-Semitic, even though Stalin happily destroyed churches and killing priests of the Orthodox Russian church.

The Romans accepted the Jewish faith as valid, and left them alone as long as they remembered who was boss. When the Jews revolted, the Romans kickes their ass, same as they would have with any other conquered people.

The Jews helped the Romans persecute early Christians, so when Christians came into power, they institutionalized persecution of Jews. Muslims weren't even on the scene yet, and again, when they started conquering everything go along just fine. Muslim/Jewish conflict is a much more recent phenom.

If Nazi Germany wasn't a Christian country, then no country is, including the US. During Nazi times, schools were still segregated between Protestants and Catholics, and you were either one or the other. But I agree that Hitler did not prosecute Jews because of his Christianity, but because his seeds of hatred were planted in fertile anti-semitic soil, cleared and plowed by the Christian church.

[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

The Romans accepted the Jewish faith as valid, and left them alone as long as they remembered who was boss. When the Jews revolted, the Romans kickes their ass, same as they would have with any other conquered people.

As valid? Eh, I'd say they tolerated Jews, more than accepted it as valid. There were periods of anti-Jewish hatred in the Roman Empire before the revolt. For example, Jews were kicked out of the city of Rome a few times before the revolt. The reason why Jews were a tight-knit is also due to the intolerance of the dominant populace as well. Being protected by civil authorities does not always guarantee safety when you're alone.

$1:

The Jews helped the Romans persecute early Christians, so when Christians came into power, they institutionalized persecution of Jews. Muslims weren't even on the scene yet, and again, when they started conquering everything go along just fine. Muslim/Jewish conflict is a much more recent phenom.

Antisemitism by Muslims isn't a recent phenomenon. The slaughter of Jews in 1033 in Fez, 1066 in Granada, forced conversations, and the ghetto-ization of the Jews occurred early in Muslim history.

It became much worse in recent history, correct, but anti-Semitism amongst Muslims against Jews didn't start in the 19th century. HOWEVER, I'll easily admit that Jewish persecution within Christian countries was worse, specifically due to the reason you mentioned above, but also due to generally larger Jewish populations in Europe, and the fact that Christianity was influenced and inspired a great deal more by Judaism, considering how Jesus is portrayed as well.

$1:

If Nazi Germany wasn't a Christian country, then no country is, including the US. During Nazi times, schools were still segregated between Protestants and Catholics, and you were either one or the other.

And I'd agree with you. Although Germany was HUGELY religious, Nazi Germany was not a theocracy, nor used "Divine Right" to establish nor hold their power. The United States, Canada, Britain, and many other countries were hugely religious too, but that does not make any of those countries a "Christian" country. Is a majority of their populations (even today) Christian? Sure. But those governments were, and are secular.

Even countries with official state religions (Like Argentina, which considers Roman Catholicism it's state religion) still operate their governments in a secular fashion. Religion might be highly ingrained in political tradition, and certainly religion might be used to justify some beliefs, but I would disagree that Argentina is controlled by religion, or that the Roman Catholic Church has overriding authority over civil affairs.

$1:

But I agree that Hitler did not prosecute Jews because of his Christianity, but because his seeds of hatred were planted in fertile anti-semitic soil, cleared and plowed by the Christian church.

And this is what I'd agree with too. Anti-semitism was commonplace. Even Prime Minister King was antisemitic, lest we forget his reasoning as to why he was against Jewish immigration. However, Hitler, and not Christianity turned lowly antisemitism into the Holocaust.

I'm in the camp that disagrees with Hitler being a Christian. Being baptized doesn't make you Christian, nor does using religious phrases and text in political speeches. I'd also argue that rounding up thousands of Christian religious leaders (Catholic and otherwise) and sending them to Dachau isn't a sign of being a Christian either.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

Muslims weren't even on the scene yet, and again, when they started conquering everything go along just fine. Muslim/Jewish conflict is a much more recent phenom.

Andy, I say this respectfully; you're wrong on both counts.

When the Muslims went on the path to conquest they were not peaceful about it and not everyone 'got along'. The Hindus fought back against them and the Europeans fought back and kicked their butts out of France, Spain, Italy, Austria, and etc.

Islam is institutionalized anti-Judaism as the book inculcates anti-Judaism. The Muslim-Jewish conflict has existed since the inception of Islam and the fighting of the past 50 years is only the most recent part of a longer struggle.

[2Cdo]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Even your method of dealing with chistians trying to convert me is violent ie you will come up and kill them. Not talk to them or explain what they are doing is wrong but to kill them.

Other than the Jehovahs knocking at your door, who are these ominous Christians that are attempting to forcibly convert you to their faith?

As an ex Christian, which Christians have called for your death unless you return to the faith?

Bart is right, your hatred of Christianity blinds you to the horrors of other religious groups.

[CDN_PATRIOT]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Nope.

They resorted to this and this.

Now what religion is doing awful things again?

Are you kidding me???

1) The 'Holocaust' was due to a madman dictator that coerced everyone. Christianity had nothing to do with that.

2) Genocides like Rwanda happen a lot in Africa, and again, Christianity had
nothing to do with that. If the perpetrators said they did this in the name of God, everyone should automatically know it's B.S. Our God doesn't tell people to commit these heinous acts.

Get your facts straight.

-J.

[Mustang1]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

1) The 'Holocaust' was due to a madman dictator that coerced everyone. Christianity had nothing to do with that.

Uhh...the 'Holocaust' was due to a myriad of factors that also includes a millenia-old cultural tradition in Europe that promoted anti-Semitism (that was perpetuated by the Christian churches), some contemporary inactivity by religious authorities and willing executioners whom were not, in fact, mad.

[Thanos]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Thanos Thanos:

That's one myth I'd certainly like to see die out. Christianity as a whole is uniquely responsible for the phenomenon of anti-Semitism/Jew-hating altogether.

What? Are you kidding? Wrong. Jew hating was a favorite past-time for any dominant culture/religion. Muslims, Christians, whatever the Romans believed, the Nazis, the Soviets, and basically anybody else who had a Jewish community in their midst basically hating them.

Making this a solely Christian phenomenon is faulty.

$1:

That it took John Paul II up into the 1990's to apologize for the historical role of Catholics in the deliberate extermination of Jews shows what that particular organization is all about.

...The hell does that mean? Well Catholic bashing is a happy past time for atheists and non-Catholic Christians alike, but come on.

$1:

Jew-hating was not an atheist phenomenon, Nazi Germany was not an atheist country, and Adolf Hitler was not even remotely close to being an atheist. He was a Christian according to the vicious standards of just about every other Christian that preceded him.

Wrong. Completely wrong. Nazi Germany was not a "Christian" country. Having churches within your country does not make you Christian, nor does having mosques in the United States makes the United States a Muslim country. Rounding up priests and sending them to Dachau is one of the most un-Christian things a "Christian" can do.

The Soviet Union was also happily anti-Semitic, even though Stalin happily destroyed churches and killing priests of the Orthodox Russian church.

Everything I said previously is backed up by centuries of historical evidince. Not every Christian, or even most Christians, are Jew-haters or murderers. But stating that does not absolve organized Christianity (going all the way back to the Christianization of the late Roman Empire) of being the force that made anti-semitism lethal on a level of megadeath. These are simply the facts. What happened under the pagan states (Egypt, Babylon, Hittites, etc.) is mostly unknown because it relies mostly on Jewish legend and myth, which like all religious legends and myths, makes the bad guys a million times worse than they actually may have been in reality. Not so in the periods after the Dark Ages. The known and provable history of Europe is an endless stream of Jew-killing performed by Christians who were inflamed into mass hatred by Christian leaders. This is not logiaclly or factually disputable.

And I absolved the Muslims of nothing when it comes to their own Jew-hating, although I would contend (and this is also historically provable) that the worst instances of Muslim anti-Semitism began after the Muslim world began to be influenced by first Nazi German agents attemptimg to stoke up local rebelions against the British, and then by Soviet KGB and East Bloc secret police agents who provided the funding and armaments to the first generations of Muslim terrorists. So, once again, it took influence from an openly Christian nation (Nazi Germany) and then by allegedly "atheist" post-Christian nations (Cold War Russia and it's allies) to raise local anti-semitism in Europe and the Levantine coast from being mere ethnic disputes between the locals to the upper strata of purging altogether a supposedly irredeemably vile and evil race.

Catholic bishops and other high-level mucky-mucks in the Church are going on about the "Jew mdeia" crucifying them over the recent peodophile scandals. And one of Ratzingers first acts was to allow back in to the fold an extremist Jew-hating English bishop that JPII had wisely excommunicated. What does that alone tell you about the lasting influcence of Jew-hatred in the Catholic Church. Don't tell me I'm a bitchy atheist that's just making this stuff up. Hell, it's so sordid that even the most creative athesit writer or demogogue would have a hard time making it up if it hadn't already occurred in reality.