[Bacardi4206]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

IMO I think having the military muscle generates respect, the only countries that ever got taken seriously were the ones with those military muscle. Regarding those that flex it. Obviously going around the world with a rifle shooting people up will not generate respect. However the countries that can kick your ass or have nukes generally are the ones taken more seriously and respected in the international community.

I mean, Canada before we got into Afghanistan did nothing but peace keeping missions after peace keeping missions. While we generated good relations with people because we were not warmongers and were known as the 'nice country'. We still diddn't generate much respect for it. If anything it denounced our military as a whole. Nobody respected the Canadian Military as a fighting force. They just laughed at it as nothing but poorly funded soldiers of peace.

The only time in our history that we actually generated a ton of respect and people took us very seriously was WW1-WW2 where Canada was a top military power. We can help our allies all we want in Afghanistan and whatever war we get into. We can kick complete ass but we will not get respect as long as we cannot even remotely defend our own country and rely on the U.S. Military for the defense of Canada.

NATO wants Canada to stay in Afghanistan because while we are good soldiers, we also have tons of peace keeping experience and the only way to win the war in Afghanistan is using a softer touch to win the support of the Afghanistan people. A soft touch Canadian troops can posses if needed. American troops can too but not so much as there training trains them to be pure fighting machines. Not soldier diplomats. They are adopting our Afghanistan strategies. In a real war though, Canada would not be as respected for there opinion as we don't have the military to take part in a full scale real war.

Say what you will but the international community respects peace, but only listens to the opinion of those with the muscle.

Please stop talking about differences in training between Canada and the US because every time you do, you reveal that you don't have a clue about our training, let alone our allies.

Yea, he wasn't too sure about Germany being in NATO either. He also thinks the French Forces in Afghanistan are kick-ass as he saw a youtube video on them.

Not a credible poster on these threads.

@2cdo
Please explain to me my incorrectness in my statement then. It is to my knowledge that the U.S. Military focuses there training on pure combat effectiveness. Training a lot of warriors. Specificly the Marines. The evidence for that statement is there attempts at peace keeping.


@EyeBrock
So because I wasn't sure about a fact, and I saw a video on a countries forces in action and stated they seemed kicked ass. I am no longer a credible poster on these threads? Thats messed up actually. You are very welcome to not deem what I say credible but that is not going to stop me from posting my opinions anyways. Sorry but you are just going to have to deal with my "Not credible posting".

How about whenever you too think I posted something not credible, just neg rep me. Would that make you two feel better about allowing somebody not so credible like me to post. Hmm?

[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

No but because the North Korea's, Iran's and China's of the world are there is why why have to maintain an effective military.

I would rather us spend all the defence budget on more hospitals or a super high speed rail link across the country, really I would.

But because there will always be the arse-hole dictator or the off-side repressive regime, we have to waste resources in having a viable defence. Otherwise these guys will just push us to one side.

One thing does not mean another. On one hand you say that respect is dependent on the ability to project force but then say its only when we do it. That implies that other components such as our society at large is part and parcel to respect as well which is at least part of my argument.

I'm not saying we don't need a military. I'm saying that its not our military that determines our influence in the world nor the reason Canada gets respect. Consider the respect you have for any of the aforementioned NATO countries under fire for lack of participation in Afghanistan like .... France. A larger and better equipped military then us and they are the navy apparently running point in Somalia pirate hunting but does that equal respect?

Hell its hard to find a functioning western democratic country that gets less respect then them.

I've think we have taken this as far as we can so to sum up:

I don't think our respect or influence in the world is tied so directly to our military as you think. I think our social programs, political infrastructure, and treatment of other countries is a larger factor. Hell I think we lose a lot of respect based on minor things like seal hunts and our environment record.

I think the most accurate summation I can make about our arguments is this:

The people whos respect I'd want don't respect us for our military usage.

The people whos respect you want are influenced by our military and our willingness to use it.

[DerbyX]

gonavy47 gonavy47:

AND our peacekeeping deployments waned because of the liberal policy of having a weak military!!! You just contradicted your whole argument about not having a strong military.

Blah blah blah. The military decreased and suffered under the PCs and increased under Martins Liberals and its been Harper breaking key military promises.

[EyeBrock]

DerbyX DerbyX:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

No but because the North Korea's, Iran's and China's of the world are there is why why have to maintain an effective military.

I would rather us spend all the defence budget on more hospitals or a super high speed rail link across the country, really I would.

But because there will always be the arse-hole dictator or the off-side repressive regime, we have to waste resources in having a viable defence. Otherwise these guys will just push us to one side.

One thing does not mean another. On one hand you say that respect is dependent on the ability to project force but then say its only when we do it. That implies that other components such as our society at large is part and parcel to respect as well which is at least part of my argument.

I'm not saying we don't need a military. I'm saying that its not our military that determines our influence in the world nor the reason Canada gets respect. Consider the respect you have for any of the aforementioned NATO countries under fire for lack of participation in Afghanistan like .... France. A larger and better equipped military then us and they are the navy apparently running point in Somalia pirate hunting but does that equal respect?

Hell its hard to find a functioning western democratic country that gets less respect then them.

I've think we have taken this as far as we can so to sum up:

I don't think our respect or influence in the world is tied so directly to our military as you think. I think our social programs, political infrastructure, and treatment of other countries is a larger factor. Hell I think we lose a lot of respect based on minor things like seal hunts and our environment record.

I think the most accurate summation I can make about our arguments is this:

The people whos respect I'd want don't respect us for our military usage.

The people whos respect you want are influenced by our military and our willingness to use it.

Yea, I think we've beaten this one to death.

Good debate though!

[DerbyX]

[gonavy47]

DerbyX DerbyX:

gonavy47 gonavy47:

AND our peacekeeping deployments waned because of the liberal policy of having a weak military!!! You just contradicted your whole argument about not having a strong military.

Blah blah blah. The military decreased and suffered under the PCs and increased under Martins Liberals and its been Harper breaking key military promises.

You are full of shit. Do you actually believe that statement?

[DerbyX]

Facts aren't your strong suit are they? I'll let Bootlegga fill you in if he ever gets around to reading this. He is more of an expert then I and will set you straight.

[2Cdo]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

@2cdo
Please explain to me my incorrectness in my statement then. It is to my knowledge that the U.S. Military focuses there training on pure combat effectiveness. Training a lot of warriors. Specificly the Marines. The evidence for that statement is there attempts at peace keeping.

You stated your PERCIEVED differences in training, of which you have NONE of the training either country does. As far as peacekeeping, the US deployed forces to Macedonia which was a success. So much for unsuccessful US peacekeeping efforts. It was also the ONLY time US forces wore UN blue.

$1:

You are very welcome to not deem what I say credible but that is not going to stop me from posting my opinions anyways. Sorry but you are just going to have to deal with my "Not credible posting".

You know what they say about opinions, don't you?

$1:

How about whenever you too think I posted something not credible, just neg rep me. Would that make you two feel better about allowing somebody not so credible like me to post. Hmm?

Nice drama queen pose. Feel free to post whatever you want but if it is pure uneducated drivel about a subject that you have no knowledge of expect to be corrected. Get used to being corrected for all your faults if you join the military, which you have expressed a desire to do. If you don't like people correcting your faults save us the time and effort and don't join the military.

Thus endith the lesson.

[gonavy47]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Facts aren't your strong suit are they? I'll let Bootlegga fill you in if he ever gets around to reading this. He is more of an expert then I and will set you straight.

It was Chretien who cancelled the military helicopter contract and threw away 500 million taxpayers dollars, for nothing. It was Mulroney who gave back distinctive branch uniforms to the forces, thus creating the groundwork to the return of esprit de corps. Apparently you know nothing about Canadian military affairs. Facts are definately not your strong suit, that's for sure.

[Bacardi4206]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

@2cdo
Please explain to me my incorrectness in my statement then. It is to my knowledge that the U.S. Military focuses there training on pure combat effectiveness. Training a lot of warriors. Specificly the Marines. The evidence for that statement is there attempts at peace keeping.

You stated your PERCIEVED differences in training, of which you have NONE of the training either country does. As far as peacekeeping, the US deployed forces to Macedonia which was a success. So much for unsuccessful US peacekeeping efforts. It was also the ONLY time US forces wore UN blue.

So you have both training than? If not than you are just being a hypocrite. A hypocrite for bashing me because I stated something about something I don't have both training in. Neither do you. So by your logic here, I shouldn't be talking about it however you shouldn't be either neither should you be bashing me or debating on the subject you apparently know nothing about for the simple fact that by your logic you diddn't train in both training aspects.

$1:

You know what they say about opinions, don't you?

No, do tell.

$1:

Nice drama queen pose. Feel free to post whatever you want but if it is pure uneducated drivel about a subject that you have no knowledge of expect to be corrected. Get used to being corrected for all your faults if you join the military, which you have expressed a desire to do. If you don't like people correcting your faults save us the time and effort and don't join the military.

Thus endith the lesson.

Thanks, I rather like it . Just a FYI, I came in here for a debate. If you thought I was wrong. Simply debate me and prove me wrong. I always expect to be corrected. I have been here long enough to know it is coming. Usually I do get it and I will stand corrected. However you and EyeBrock as of lately have not done so. You just insult me, mock me and insult me some more like we were in pre-school. If you had simply corrected my statement. I wouldn't have bothered making this post which you seem to think is over dramatic. Yet I am not the one bothering with the time insulting every post I make that you seem to be incorrect and making the subject dramatic.

When I join the military, I will accept all the faults I have. Nobody is perfect and everybody has faults so what do I care. However there is a difference between somebody correcting my faults and somebody just being plain arrogant and insulting them like you have chosen to do.
[/quote]

[ASLplease]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Facts aren't your strong suit are they? I'll let Bootlegga fill you in if he ever gets around to reading this. He is more of an expert then I and will set you straight.

are you saying you are an expert?

[2Cdo]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

So you have both training than? If not than you are just being a hypocrite. A hypocrite for bashing me because I stated something about something I don't have both training in. Neither do you. So by your logic here, I shouldn't be talking about it however you shouldn't be either neither should you be bashing me or debating on the subject you apparently know nothing about for the simple fact that by your logic you diddn't train in both training aspects.

Yes I do. Also, I have done various training with the British army, Dutch, German, Australian. So i guess that means I know a little bit more than you on military training.

Did I mention that I have 27 years in the CF and have been employed as an Instructor on courses as varied as BMQ through parachuting.

$1:

Thanks, I rather like it . Just a FYI, I came in here for a debate. If you thought I was wrong. Simply debate me and prove me wrong. I always expect to be corrected. I have been here long enough to know it is coming. Usually I do get it and I will stand corrected. However you and EyeBrock as of lately have not done so. You just insult me, mock me and insult me some more like we were in pre-school. If you had simply corrected my statement. I wouldn't have bothered making this post which you seem to think is over dramatic. Yet I am not the one bothering with the time insulting every post I make that you seem to be incorrect and making the subject dramatic.

When I join the military, I will accept all the faults I have. Nobody is perfect and everybody has faults so what do I care. However there is a difference between somebody correcting my faults and somebody just being plain arrogant and insulting them like you have chosen to do.

Well I truly apologize for upsetting your little self. You were corrected in a blunt and straight forward manner of which I refuse to apologize. If you think I was too hard on you, tough. Save yourself the time and effort and look for work elsewhere, not the Forces. If you still want to join learn to accept harsh correction and blunt descriptions of your shortcomings. I will do anything I can to help those recruits who both need and want it. Those who whine about being "mistreated" by the mean NCO who corrects the recruit deserve nothing but scorn. I'm starting to get a good idea what category you fall into.

[uwish]

DerbyX DerbyX:

uwish uwish:

DerbyX DerbyX:

So winning the Nobel peace prize wasn't respect? I think you are relying too much on our lack of respect garnered as our deployments waned throughout the 70s and 80s.

The Aussies are certainly not a regional power and have no more ability to back themselves up with force then we do. In fact their ability as well as ours is almost dependant entirely on the US and quite frankly thats not respect I need nor want.

Again you consider force = respect. I'd say the countries that are buying into that are the very countries we seem to be criticizing lately.

well, Obama won this same prize with only a few weeks in office, how respectable is that?

Nobel isn't the be all and end all. Not anymore.

EDIT: Someone beet me to that point. I must click submit faster!

You may think that but others don't and it hardly counters the fact that back then Canada did have respect and influence that didn't come from the barrel of a gun.

prove it..prove not only we 'had' this coveted respect, but we have since lost it in the 4 years the CPC has been in power...

[Bacardi4206]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Yes I do. Also, I have done various training with the British army, Dutch, German, Australian. So i guess that means I know a little bit more than you on military training.

Did I mention that I have 27 years in the CF and have been employed as an Instructor on courses as varied as BMQ through parachuting.

Than I guess I stand corrected on that part, however still. That is no reason to be a complete asshole and state I shouldn't be posting. Simple correct me and move on.

$1:

Well I truly apologize for upsetting your little self. You were corrected in a blunt and straight forward manner of which I refuse to apologize. If you think I was too hard on you, tough. Save yourself the time and effort and look for work elsewhere, not the Forces. If you still want to join learn to accept harsh correction and blunt descriptions of your shortcomings. I will do anything I can to help those recruits who both need and want it. Those who whine about being "mistreated" by the mean NCO who corrects the recruit deserve nothing but scorn. I'm starting to get a good idea what category you fall into.

You never corrected me, your first response was you telling me not to post anymore. Your second response was you telling me I knew nothing about the subject because I never trained in both the Canadian Forces and U.S. Army style of training. If you can quote me one response you made that had anything to do with correcting my original comment. I will take that back but as I don't see any, just simple remarks of how I am wrong and you in a way calling me a idiot and stating I shouldn't post anymore. I don't really see how that will be possible.

I already said I do accept corrections, even harsh ones but as I will put it again. You have not corrected me on anything. Unless you call stating I am wrong proof of evidence just because YOU stated it? I will join the Forces when I am ready. However the Canadian Forces is not a debate team so get your head of your ass and make your insults make sense. I don't really see how my debate has anything to do with my ability to join the Canadian Forces or me not accepting corrections. Try actually correcting me next time and maybe we can test your little theory?

Also you are not my NCO and I am not in the Army. Therefor I hardly see how I fall in that category. I think I can label you though. You are the guy who got promoted and feels superior. So when you come up to some civilian with not as much personal experience regarding the military. You think you are superior to him in everyway and think your opinion is god over his. Sorry to say, while you may have more experience in the military than I do. Doesn't exempt you from being a asshole. Keep your military aspect of your life in the military in your training field. Ever heard of indoor and outdoor voices? Pretend the military training aspect where all your recruits are that you help train and prepare is where you use your outdoor voice. Now pretend everything else is where you use your indoor voice. Good.

[gonavy47]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

So you have both training than? If not than you are just being a hypocrite. A hypocrite for bashing me because I stated something about something I don't have both training in. Neither do you. So by your logic here, I shouldn't be talking about it however you shouldn't be either neither should you be bashing me or debating on the subject you apparently know nothing about for the simple fact that by your logic you diddn't train in both training aspects.

Yes I do. Also, I have done various training with the British army, Dutch, German, Australian. So i guess that means I know a little bit more than you on military training.

Did I mention that I have 27 years in the CF and have been employed as an Instructor on courses as varied as BMQ through parachuting.

$1:

Thanks, I rather like it . Just a FYI, I came in here for a debate. If you thought I was wrong. Simply debate me and prove me wrong. I always expect to be corrected. I have been here long enough to know it is coming. Usually I do get it and I will stand corrected. However you and EyeBrock as of lately have not done so. You just insult me, mock me and insult me some more like we were in pre-school. If you had simply corrected my statement. I wouldn't have bothered making this post which you seem to think is over dramatic. Yet I am not the one bothering with the time insulting every post I make that you seem to be incorrect and making the subject dramatic.

When I join the military, I will accept all the faults I have. Nobody is perfect and everybody has faults so what do I care. However there is a difference between somebody correcting my faults and somebody just being plain arrogant and insulting them like you have chosen to do.

Well I truly apologize for upsetting your little self. You were corrected in a blunt and straight forward manner of which I refuse to apologize. If you think I was too hard on you, tough. Save yourself the time and effort and look for work elsewhere, not the Forces. If you still want to join learn to accept harsh correction and blunt descriptions of your shortcomings. I will do anything I can to help those recruits who both need and want it. Those who whine about being "mistreated" by the mean NCO who corrects the recruit deserve nothing but scorn. I'm starting to get a good idea what category you fall into.