[ridenrain]

I'm not saying it's a bad idea but I'm guessing that if it was a good thing the Russians would have one in their arctic fleet. If we're just launching helicopters, we don't need a runway.

[bootlegga]

You're correct, we don't need a runway, but a helo carrier gives them a place to land and refuel, and then continue patrolling. Otherwise, you need to build a series of fuel dumps all around the Arctic.

[EyeBrock]

bootlegga bootlegga:

You're correct, we don't need a runway, but a helo carrier gives them a place to land and refuel, and then continue patrolling. Otherwise, you need to build a series of fuel dumps all around the Arctic.

I was reading an article in the Post and they were comparing our efforts in the Artctic with Sweden's.

The Swedes have about 3000 troops/airmen based north of the Circle. Combat aircraft, artillery, heavy armour and infantry.

I don't see why we couldn't do the same.

[SigPig]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

bootlegga bootlegga:

You're correct, we don't need a runway, but a helo carrier gives them a place to land and refuel, and then continue patrolling. Otherwise, you need to build a series of fuel dumps all around the Arctic.

I was reading an article in the Post and they were comparing our efforts in the Artctic with Sweden's.

The Swedes have about 3000 troops/airmen based north of the Circle. Combat aircraft, artillery, heavy armour and infantry.

I don't see why we couldn't do the same.

Because when it comes to defense the Swedes usually have their s**t together. Us, not so much. I'm usually pretty impressed with the amount of forward thinking that goes into there defense.

[EyeBrock]

Agreed. The Swedish model is something that we should examine. Having a company of reservists is hardly showing the world that Canada's north is Canada's.

We could easily have a det of F18's, a battalion of infantry supported by artillery and armour. Plus it would be an excellent training ground for our NATO partners such as the Brits, Germans et al.

Something like a northern version of BATUS.

[Winnipegger]

Ok. Here are the pieces I've come up with. You guys tell me the mix that would work best. Remember, we have to keep cost affordable.

• rebuild the Canadian Forces Station at Resolute, capable of hosting a full wing of CF-18s (or their replacement) for a few months if necessary, any time of year
• nuclear powered full carrier, dual acting hull able to traverse deep ocean in heavy seas and a heavy icebreaker itself. 40% size of a Nimitz class supercarrier but with 2 hanger decks, as many aircraft as Nimitz, but all Hornets and no SuperHornet. Support for carrying some SuperHornets on the deck. Air wing: 48 Hornets, 8 Viking, 2 Dash-8 cargo planes with folding wings and hardened for carrier landings, 4 MQ-9 Mariner UAVs with the same radar as an E-2D Hawkeye, 4 jet UAVs with the same jamming ability as an EA-6B Prowler (but no missiles), 6 CH-148 Cyclone Helicopters, 1 CH-118 Iroquois helicopter (small).
• buy the INS Vikrant from India (same age and class as the HMCS Bonaventure) and convert to a helicopter carrier. Not ice hardened, but capable. Flexible configuration could carry F-35B (jump jet version), Harrier 2, AH-1W SuperCobra, CH-148 Cyclone helicopters, Desault Rafale M, MQ-9 Mariner UAVs.
• nuclear powered AOR, dual acting hull again (sharp bow for heavy seas, heavy icebreaker bow in the stern, azimuthing pods so it drives backwards in ice), most of the support services for a supercarrier moved to the AOR
• diesel powered roll-on/roll-off vehicle carrier. Carry military vehicles including tanks during war, transport cars for commercial trade during peace.
• upgrade 2 existing coast guard icebreakers so they have mounting points for frigate weaponry, and store the weaponry at a CFB in the arctic. Have an aircrane helicopter available to carry said weaponry to the the ships if/when needed. Designated ships: CCGS Louis S. St. Laurent (our heaviest icebreaker), and CCGS Amundsen (a medium icebreaker).
• buy one or two surplus class 10 nuclear icebreakers from the Russians
• complete the Conservative promise to increase the Canadian Rangers by 500
• not only replace our 17 cargo CC-130 Hercules aircraft with the 'J' model, but the 10 Hercules used for Search And Rescue and the 5 used for mid-air refuelling also with the 'J' model. Complete the purchase of 4 C-17 GlobeMaster 3 aircraft. That is a total of 36 cargo planes, that can fly in a single formation if needed. Develop an unmanned aircraft using 4 jet engines adapted from engines from an A-10 Warthog instead of rotor blades, and able to deploy from the cargo bay of either of these aircraft: 4 container carriers per cargo plane. Each container carrier would carry a 20-foot long, standard width, 2/3 height container; filled with one platoon of unmanned ground vehicles. That's one division of UGVs in a single flight. Harrier 2 or AV-8B or F-35B aircraft would have to be borrowed from NATO allies to escort container carriers, CF-18s would escort the cargo planes. This wing of aircraft would replace an assault carrier; deployed much more rapidly.
• move several Aurora and Arcturus aircraft to Resolute. Conduct arctic patrols from there.
• move the sea port from Nanisivik to Resolute, ensuring all Canadian navy and coast guard ships can dock there, as well as the world's largest container ships and oil tankers. Provide repair, maintenance, and supply services for ships.
• place underwater microphones (passive sonar) for arctic monitoring
• station UAVs at Resolute to patrol the arctic
• complete repairs of our newly purchased submarines
• develop new high-tech weaponry to upgrade our frigates/destroyers: 100kW laser for defence against hypersonic anti-ship missiles, supercavitating mini-torpedo (3" diameter) to take out incoming torpedoes, small unmanned water vehicles (UWV) the same size as a towed array sonar but built as a small surface boat to provide sonar at extended range from the ship and integrated with guidance for the supercavitating mini-torpedo.
• another high-tech weapon: Arctic torpedo: an air dropped modification of a Mark 48 heavy weight torpedo, but with guidance programmed for operating under the ice, and carrier aircraft (CF-18, Aurora) would have a dumb bomb capable of blasting a hole in the ice before dropping the torpedo through that hole.
• Note: RadarSat and RadarSat2 will continue to monitor ships in the arctic. RadarSat can spot ship wakes, but not ships themselves; RadarSat2 has enough resolution to directly spot ships. They are normally used to measure ice and shifting sandbars beneath the ice, to determine safe passage through the arctic.

[EyeBrock]

Yawn.

Another wiki hero.

[Winnipegger]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Yawn.

Another wiki hero.

Another partisan hack.

[EyeBrock]

Partisan about what? That you know little about the thread? Come on.....

[saturn_656]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

buy the INS Vikrant from India (same age and class as the HMCS Bonaventure)

Holy shit man you still haven't given up on this idea?

[Winnipegger]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

buy the INS Vikrant from India (same age and class as the HMCS Bonaventure)

Holy shit man you still haven't given up on this idea?

That was the only helicopter carrier that I proposed. I'm currently leaning toward convincing India to convert it, and use their money to develop carrier weaponry, equipment, and the infrastructure to build a carrier. Then use that to pay for development of a Canadian full carrier. I see no role for an arctic helicopter carrier. But I did ask you guys to give your opinion, so I'll shut up and let you guys debate the mix.

[ridenrain]

What's the lifespan of an icebreaker? If the fatigue of all those impacts shortens it's life, it dosen't make sense to make it more expensive and valuable than it has to be.

[Canadian_Mind]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Ok. Here are the pieces I've come up with. You guys tell me the mix that would work best. Remember, we have to keep cost affordable.

• rebuild the Canadian Forces Station at Resolute, capable of hosting a full wing of CF-18s (or their replacement) for a few months if necessary, any time of year
• diesel powered roll-on/roll-off vehicle carrier. Carry military vehicles including tanks during war, transport cars for commercial trade during peace.
• upgrade 2 existing coast guard icebreakers so they have mounting points for frigate weaponry, and store the weaponry at a CFB in the arctic. Have an aircrane helicopter available to carry said weaponry to the the ships if/when needed. Designated ships: CCGS Louis S. St. Laurent (our heaviest icebreaker), and CCGS Amundsen (a medium icebreaker).
  I'd say upgrade all of them to have some sort of weapons system, except permanently mounted.
• complete the Conservative promise to increase the Canadian Rangers by 500
• move several Aurora and Arcturus aircraft to Resolute. Conduct arctic patrols from there.
  Didnt know we still had the Arcturus. None the less, part of this proposal shoudl be to upgrade the remaining 6 Aurora's t the stadard set by the modified 12
• move the sea port from Nanisivik to Resolute, ensuring all Canadian navy and coast guard ships can dock there, as well as the world's largest container ships and oil tankers. Provide repair, maintenance, and supply services for ships.
• place underwater microphones (passive sonar) for arctic monitoring
• station UAVs at Resolute to patrol the arctic
• complete repairs of our newly purchased submarines
  THose subs are hardly "newly purchased." Things are deathtraps and should be sent to the bottom of the ocean. Should by a fleet of more modern and capable attack/patrol subs like the German U-214, or design our own based off our unique needs regarding endurance and sheer range of operational climates.
• develop new high-tech weaponry to upgrade our frigates/destroyers: 100kW laser for defence against hypersonic anti-ship missiles, supercavitating mini-torpedo (3" diameter) to take out incoming torpedoes, small unmanned water vehicles (UWV) the same size as a towed array sonar but built as a small surface boat to provide sonar at extended range from the ship and integrated with guidance for the supercavitating mini-torpedo.
• another high-tech weapon: Arctic torpedo: an air dropped modification of a Mark 48 heavy weight torpedo, but with guidance programmed for operating under the ice, and carrier aircraft (CF-18, Aurora) would have a dumb bomb capable of blasting a hole in the ice before dropping the torpedo through that hole.
• Note: RadarSat and RadarSat2 will continue to monitor ships in the arctic. RadarSat can spot ship wakes, but not ships themselves; RadarSat2 has enough resolution to directly spot ships. They are normally used to measure ice and shifting sandbars beneath the ice, to determine safe passage through the arctic.

My additional comments are in italics. The rest, if possible, I'd support.

[bootlegga]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

bootlegga bootlegga:

You're correct, we don't need a runway, but a helo carrier gives them a place to land and refuel, and then continue patrolling. Otherwise, you need to build a series of fuel dumps all around the Arctic.

I was reading an article in the Post and they were comparing our efforts in the Artctic with Sweden's.

The Swedes have about 3000 troops/airmen based north of the Circle. Combat aircraft, artillery, heavy armour and infantry.

I don't see why we couldn't do the same.

We had a lot more assets in the Arctic during the Cold War days, but since then governments have had a hard time justifying deployments up there (I'm sure those posted wouldn't be too happy about it either ). It'd be nice to see again, but it seems the CF is less and less interested in the Arctic everyday. Hell, that's why we're not getting those three armed heavy icebreakers.

The other difference is that Sweden has a land border with a nation which has a rather nasty history of invading its neighbours for shits and giggles, we don't. That alone creates a need for troops, armour and arty up there. All the Scandanavian countries have troops based up there for that very reason.

Still, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

[EyeBrock]

Hey, I spent 3 years at CFB Goose Bay. These guys can hack a 6 month spot in Alert.