[Curtman]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

I don't imply it, but many of the NDP voters (the people he represents) said it, and the polls followed them.

If you say so. The only reason it didn't happen is because Steve called a holiday to say his butt.

$1:

No, thats just your all or nothing default position again. I'm trying to have a serious discussion, and sprinkling in some flavour. The idea is so the other guy gets frustrated and isn't able to put together a cohesive response. I don't really know if it's working or if the same thing would happen without it..Perhaps I should say neocon instead, it's more or less the same.

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Dude, that IS a troll...lol. Or at the very least a juvenile. You seriously think if you rile someone up that makes their point less valid or yours more so? I don't think you really know what a neocon is without looking it up. TO most people it's just a catch all for something they either can't understand or articulate.....a lot like the word redneck.

Again we agree. It's exactly like the word redneck, I was asking if it would be less offensive to you, and obviously not. Sorry about that.

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Thank you for some honesty. When I get a straight answer like this I haven't the heart to argue with the person.

I don't think you should, I threw you a bone there.. I'm saying that our leader doesn't really fit the party very well. But we've got him right where we want him. He wants the job, and he's got great leadership skills. And it turns out he also has some great things to say. I think we should keep him on a short rope though, and not let him become a harper.

As long as he actually believes what he said here then he'll make a fantastic prime minister.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

I think we should keep him on a short rope though, and not let him become a harper.

I really think you need to honestly consider for a moment if Harper is really as much of a 'harper' as the Liberal party would like you to think. Especially if you consider him on a relative basis with former high profile Liberal party members or former Reform party members. There's a whole lotta crap said about him that he's never justified through actions. You can't blame Afghanistan on him, not without being a hypocrite or without living in denial of the fact that whatever party comes in next is going to commit to the same mission. You can't call him an 'American' -- which is just a lazy, meaningless and inarticulate BS smear attempt -- can't do that with with Iggy's resume. You can't call him an Albertan seperatist. He was born and raised in Ontario and was never a seperatist. While he has 'socially conservative' views that I am uncomfortable with he actually left the Reform party because of concerns he had that they, [paraphrasing] "were too overly concerned with social conservatisim which has only a small place in politics, while ignoring economic conservatisim which is the proper realm of government".

If you want the Liberal party to succeed (and I'd like to see that -- I'm not married to the CPC) then Liberals need to quit pretending Canada drifted towards conservatism (redneckism, americanism,neoconism, whatever) and accept the fact that the reason the CPC has been winning and the Liberal party has been losing is because of their image regarding tax-money-wasting scandals, insider trading, sponsorship scandal, etc. In other words the swing voter (like myself) moved away from the Liberals, not towards conservatisim. The Liberal party can win these people back, and in fact a front man like Iggy is a good candidate for that imo, but first they have to quit dismissing these swing voters and 'brainwashed neocon rednecks'. That's just hinding your head in the sand.

[Curtman]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

You can't blame Afghanistan on him, not without being a hypocrite or without living in denial of the fact that whatever party comes in next is going to commit to the same mission.

Why the hell would anyone do that? I can't blame him for sending us to Iraq either, he never got the chance. But he would have.

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

You can't call him an 'American' -- which is just a lazy, meaningless and inarticulate BS smear attempt

No, he's much worse, he's a wannabe American. No, worse he's a wannamake Canada American. He often tells the Liberal party how we shouldn't upset them, and how we should go along with what they say.

Were you in favour of putting the U.S. missile defense shield in the Arctic? You know, the one designed to blow up incoming nuclear weapons over Canada before they reach the U.S.? The cons were. They agreed with Bush's morons who said were 'giving up our sovereignty' by not doing exactly what they told us to do.. Imagine if you can how that works.

There's example after example of that.

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Can't do that with with Iggy's resume. You can't call him an Albertan seperatist. He was born and raised in Ontario and was never a seperatist. While he has 'socially conservative' views that I am uncomfortable with he actually left the Reform party because of concerns he had that they, [paraphrasing] "were too overly concerned with social conservatisim which has only a small place in politics, while ignoring economic conservatisim which is the proper realm of government".

And then he came to be our prime minister who tried hard and long to make sure we put and end to debt repayment, and make deficit's possible again.

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

If you want the Liberal party to succeed (and I'd like to see that -- I'm not married to the CPC) then Liberals need to quit pretending Canada drifted towards conservatism (redneckism, americanism,neoconism, whatever) and accept the fact that the reason the CPC has been winning and the Liberal party has been losing is because of their image regarding tax-money-wasting scandals, insider trading, sponsorship scandal, etc. In other words the swing voter (like myself) moved away from the Liberals, not towards conservatisim. The Liberal party can win these people back, and in fact a front man like Iggy is a good candidate for that imo, but first they have to quit dismissing these swing voters and 'brainwashed neocon rednecks'. That's just hinding your head in the sand.

Oh what a strange world we live in.. While the previously elected Conservative prime minister is taking part in precedings to decide the details of how he went around the world selling weapons for a German man who is wanted in Germany.

You guys badmouth the Liberals for the sponsorship scandal then throw billions of dollars at big business and advertising for the Conservative party.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

I can't blame him for sending us to Iraq either, he never got the chance. But he would have.

You base this on that ambiguous quote you posted a while back that indicates no such thing. However in plain English iggy said we should.

$1:

Were you in favour of putting the U.S. missile defense shield in the Arctic? You know, the one designed to blow up incoming nuclear weapons over Canada before they reach the U.S.? The cons were.

Iggy believes this even stronger.

$1:

No, he's much worse, he's a wannabe American. No, worse he's a wannamake Canada American. He often tells the Liberal party how we shouldn't upset them, and how we should go along with what they say.

You just say this over and over again with no real reason to do so and everything he has that says the opposite. You're almost utterly brainwashed. That he doesn't call Americans morons doesn't actually make him an american wannabie....
Iggy on the other hand.....well of course you'll ignore that.

$1:

Oh what a strange world we live in.. While the previously elected Conservative prime minister is taking part in precedings to decide the details of how he went around the world selling weapons for a German man who is wanted in Germany.

You guys badmouth the Liberals for the sponsorship scandal then throw billions of dollars at big business and advertising for the Conservative party.

Doesn't address anything I said....so I'll say it again:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

If you want the Liberal party to succeed (and I'd like to see that -- I'm not married to the CPC) then Liberals need to quit pretending Canada drifted towards conservatism (redneckism, americanism,neoconism, whatever) and accept the fact that the reason the CPC has been winning and the Liberal party has been losing is because of their image regarding tax-money-wasting scandals, insider trading, sponsorship scandal, etc. In other words the swing voter (like myself) moved away from the Liberals, not towards conservatisim. The Liberal party can win these people back, and in fact a front man like Iggy is a good candidate for that imo, but first they have to quit dismissing these swing voters and 'brainwashed neocon rednecks'. That's just hinding your head in the sand.

[Curtman]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

The Liberal party can win these people back, and in fact a front man like Iggy is a good candidate for that imo, but first they have to quit dismissing these swing voters and 'brainwashed neocon rednecks'. That's just hinding your head in the sand.

Oh I wanted to comment on this as well. I have no idea when the Liberal party has said those things. Are you sure you aren't doing the same thing others do around here? Assume that I speak for the Liberal party, or have anything to do with the Liberal party other than hope they get elected.

I may drop some leaflets next election for them, but probably in a different riding. The NDP owns this place.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Oh I wanted to comment on this as well. I have no idea when the Liberal party has said those things.

you're a liberal. You've said it. It's your attitude and it ignores the real reasons Liberals lost seats to the conservatives via swing voters. They didn't become more conservative or "american" -- this is just your childish fantasy. No social pundit would ever be so simplistic. It's an inarticulate blow-hard statement that doesn't deal with reality. They lost voters because of the scandals. They wanted to give the CPC a try.

$1:

You guys badmouth the Liberals for the sponsorship scandal then throw billions of dollars at big business

Wasn't badmouthing them, I was pointing out the situation and how it seems to Canadians. I think you should really think about what you're saying. Throwing billions at big business --- just like Iggy demanded them to? Are yout alking about the stimulus? In any case giving out billions in stimulus is WAY better than throwing billions away on nothing or pocketing it themselves.

[Curtman]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

You base this on that ambiguous quote you posted a while back that indicates no such thing. However in plain English iggy said we should.

"This party will not take its position based on public opinion polls. We will not take a stand based on focus groups. We will not take a stand based on phone-in shows or householder surveys or any other vagaries of pubic opinion... In my judgment Canada will eventually join with the allied coalition if war on Iraq comes to pass. The government will join, notwithstanding its failure to prepare, its neglect in co-operating with its allies, or its inability to contribute. In the end it will join out of the necessity created by a pattern of uncertainty and indecision. It will not join as a leader but unnoticed at the back of the parade."
- Stepehen Harper indicating that, if elected, Canada will join the US occupation of Iraq, Hansard, January 29th 2003.

$1:

Iggy believes this even stronger.

Nope.
'I do not support ballistic missile defence or the weaponization of space,'' Ignatieff, a freshman Toronto MP, said Monday in a statement to CanWest News Service.

''We should not participate in these measures. Canada must continue to work with our international partners and allies to ensure that our sovereignty is respected and that our national interests are represented in any multilateral discussions regarding continental security.''

$1:

You just say this over and over again with no real reason to do so and everything he has that says the opposite. That he doesn't call Americans morons doesn't actually make him an american wannabie....

Now you're doing it again. I never called all conservatives rednecks. I never called all Americans morons. It's a fair assessment of the Bush administration I think.

[Akhenaten]

I conceed the point about Iggy not supporting the defense shield. I was wrong about that.

This:

$1:

Now you're doing it again. I never called all conservatives rednecks. I never called all Americans morons. It's a fair assessment of the Bush administration I think.

Has no relation to this:

$1:

You just say this over and over again with no real reason to do so and everything he has that says the opposite. That he doesn't call Americans morons doesn't actually make him an american wannabie....

We were talking about Harper and you've stated he's an American wannabie numerous times.

[Akhenaten]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

I conceed the point about Iggy not supporting the defense shield. I was wrong about that.

Actually I take that back:

$1:

“In the foreign policy of the 21st century, the key thing to be is a producer of good ideas,” says Ignatieff. “As a middle power, our policy is not leveraged by power but by ideas.” Unfortunately for Ignatieff, many Canadians don’t like his ideas. Ignatieff supported the Iraq war, which an overwhelming majority of his compatriots opposed. He backed the proposed continental missile defense shield, which the Liberal government refused to endorse. And he’s been taking heat for his controversial endorsement of interrogation techniques such as sleep deprivation that are, he says, “lesser evils” than torture. His critics paint him as a neocon in humanitarian clothing. At his nomination rally in late November, hecklers shouted, “American,” “Torture lite,” and “Illegal war.”

link
Looks like Iggy is just flip-flopping just like he did with his Iraq stance.

[Curtman]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

you're a liberal. You've said it. It's your attitude and it ignores the real reasons Liberals lost seats to the conservatives via swing voters. They didn't become more conservative or "american" -- this is just your childish fantasy. No social pundit would ever be so simplistic. It's an inarticulate blow-hard statement that doesn't deal with reality. They lost voters because of the scandals. They wanted to give the CPC a try.

Federally I think it's a no-brainer. The worst Liberal party is better than the best Conservative party. Like I said before I wouldn't vote Liberal provincially if my life depended on it.

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Wasn't badmouthing them, I was pointing out the situation and how it seems to Canadians. I think you should really think about what you're saying. Throwing billions at big business --- just like Iggy demanded them to? Are yout alking about the stimulus? In any case giving out billions in stimulus is WAY better than throwing billions away on nothing or pocketing it themselves.

Iggy did not say that. Iggy said this in the document I linked to yesterday:

"Other conservatives, like the ones in power in Canada, have been forced to carry out liberal stimulus programs their own ideology previously rejected, only proving that it is tough to do something well when you don’t believe in doing it at all."

That sums it up pretty well.

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Looks like Iggy is just flip-flopping just like he did with his Iraq stance.

Or maybe you'll find that Iggy said we should participate in North American defense, but was against what the U.S. was proposing. Steve thought it was a fantastic idea. Even if might it might not work at all.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Other conservatives, like the ones in power in Canada, have been forced to carry out liberal stimulus programs their own ideology previously rejected, only proving that it is tough to do something well when you don’t believe in doing it at all."
That sums it up pretty well.

Make up your mind. Either the Cons "throw away billions on big business" or they were 'forced into a liberal policy of throwing away billions to big business".

That contradiction was my point. First you say that's what Cons do - throw money at big business, then you say they were forced to do it by the Liberals. Which is it?

(time for some of that honesty)

[Curtman]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Make up your mind. Either the Cons "throw away billions on big business" or they were 'forced into a liberal policy of throwing away billions to big business".

Both! The Liberals asked for stimulus (like E.I. reform) and what they got was something that seemed to be designed to be as least effective as possible, and designed to be something that they could later blame the Liberals for.

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

That contradiction was my point. First you say that's what Cons do - throw money at big business, then you say they were forced to do it by the Liberals. Which is it?

(time for some of that honesty)

Good, I'm glad we could clear that up.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Good, I'm glad we could clear that up.

Me too. So you were, how should I put it, 'full of it' when you said;

$1:

You guys [conservatives] badmouth the Liberals for the sponsorship scandal then throw billions of dollars at big business

Since this is exactly what the Liberals wanted.

$1:

The Liberals asked for stimulus (like E.I. reform) and what they got was something that seemed to be designed to be as least effective as possible, and designed to be something that they could later blame the Liberals for.

Bullshit. They demanded to see the stimuluc package before they'd promise to continue to work with the PC's. They demanded money for big business (auto industry for example).

Face it: it's ok when it's Liberals and it BS when it's conservatives. Your view of the political landscape is more simplistic than a Saturday morning cartoon....much like your simplistic views and bighotted predjudices of the people in this country.

[Curtman]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

Since this is exactly what the Liberals wanted.

Not exactly. During the time Steve was demanding there should be no stimulus, we lost more jobs than the stimulus proposal even projected creating. When it finally arrived, the income tax cuts that help the working class won't kick in until 2010. And nothing at all for EI, the people who are out of work and can't get E.I. get nothing.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

During the time Steve was demanding there should be no stimulus, we lost more jobs than the stimulus proposal even projected creating.

Um, no. First off at the time he was claiming there was no need for stimulus (admittedly a bit of a knee-jerk reaction) the jury was still out among analysts and economists as to whether or not stimulus was needed or how much. Haper wisely chose to what and see what our (80%) trade partner was going to do, and how much they were going to put up.