[Scape]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

$1:

["Donny_Brasco"
1.1 in one thousand (travel to the US for healthcare).

lmao...999 people in 1000 use CANADIAN healthcare...

What does that tell you?

That only rich and influential Canadians can afford better US healthcare. Your top 1% dont trust your system that they are selling you!!!!!

That is a misnomer but you are not entirely incorrect. Let's take cancer drugs for example. The top two drugs for the treatment of cancer, although cleared for use in Canada, are not in circulation. The reason? Cost as compared to the therapeutic equivalents.

$1:

Erbitux: A full course of drug therapy costs about $56,000 - estimates the cancer Advocacy Coalition of Canada.

The provincial drug programs are huge and can buy in bulk but that advantage is negated when it comes to cancer treatment in colon cases because the numbers effected are so small and the treatment for it is so new and as yet unverified in their effectiveness and disproportionally expensive. This is why for the rates of colon cancer in the US (for the people who have cover) vs Canada the US has a larger number of colon cancer survivors and a higher rate of successful colonoscopies. The same thing happens with hip surgeries as they are still considered not immediately life threatening so people can end up waiting. However, the system can adapt and there is now more priority on that. As a result the wait times have come down a great deal.

When it comes to experimental and high cost drugs the system is slow to react and in that aspect the US system does have some short term advantages. However, with inadequate trial you could end up with another snake oil cure that gives the mirage of a cure but ends up down the road as another Thalidomide.

So what happens in Canada in such cases they have longer trials for example Alzheimer's Drug Therapy Initiative because of cost and there were not enough trials done on a long term basis:

$1:

The Alzheimer’s Drug Therapy Initiative is a 4-phase project to address a clinical knowledge gap in the use of cholinesterase inhibitors in individuals in the mild to moderate stages of Alzheimer’s disease. The initial phase was the Alzheimer’s Forum held in July 2006, followed by a second planning phase. We are now in the third phase, studying the effectiveness of these medications. The fourth phase will be the evaluation of the data gathered through the associated studies.

Even though other provincial programs do cover this drug BC went this rout to better target the use as the cost is high and the results as of yet are still inconclusive.

In the short term (especially if your suffering) this delay may make the US system of drug approval and cover better but this is not an imprudent reaction by the system itself and the end result is better health care for all at a lower cost. The alternative is covering every high cost wonder drug that comes out as soon as it is on the market that may end up being ineffective or worse killing all the while the costs for such treatments are a huge for dubious results.

[DerbyX]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

$1:

["Donny_Brasco"
1.1 in one thousand (travel to the US for healthcare).

lmao...999 people in 1000 use CANADIAN healthcare...

What does that tell you?

That only rich and influential Canadians can afford better US healthcare. Your top 1% dont trust your system that they are selling you!!!!!

Lots of Americans are actually going to Mexico for various health care needs.

Ours aren't doing that because they don't trust our system they just want to get treatment quicker.

Your citizens are doing so because they simply cannot afford treatment in their own country.

[Donny_Brasco]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

$1:

["Donny_Brasco"
1.1 in one thousand (travel to the US for healthcare).

lmao...999 people in 1000 use CANADIAN healthcare...

What does that tell you?

That only rich and influential Canadians can afford better US healthcare. Your top 1% dont trust your system that they are selling you!!!!!

I hate to break it to you but there are far more than 1 in 1000 that can afford to travel to the states for treatment if they choose.

Keep trying though, for god and country I know you have to be right. Wait, I hear your elite selling you Iraq and calling your name...better run off and fight for god and country over there too!

[llama66]

no, its not a I win because I say so attitude, I've been in the Canadian System more times then I'd like, and when you guys go on about how our system is flawed, and you actually haven't been here to try it out, that tells me you don't respect Canada, when MD makes comments about our National Defense, that tells me you don't respect Canada. so please, don't judge us and when we call you on that shit then act like your not. your making assumptions too bud, so its fine for you to assumptions, but the rest of us cannot, grow up, move on. I bid you a good day, sir.

[Chagrin]

llama66 llama66:

no, its not a I win because I say so attitude, I've been in the Canadian System more times then I'd like, and when you guys go on about how our system is flawed, and you actually haven't been here to try it out, that tells me you don't respect Canada, when MD makes comments about our National Defense, that tells me you don't respect Canada. so please, don't judge us and when we call you on that shit then act like your not. your making assumptions too bud, so its fine for to assumptions, but the rest of us cannot, grow up, move on. I bid you a good day, sir.

Haha.

I hope you know I am not MD. I never said your system is flawed, how many times do I have to say that? I'm not judging you, either. I'm feeling like you think I'm your enemy, when that isn't the case.

[llama66]

Scape Scape:

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

$1:

["Donny_Brasco"
1.1 in one thousand (travel to the US for healthcare).

lmao...999 people in 1000 use CANADIAN healthcare...

What does that tell you?

That only rich and influential Canadians can afford better US healthcare. Your top 1% dont trust your system that they are selling you!!!!!

That is a misnomer but you are not entirely incorrect. Let's take cancer drugs for example. The top two drugs for the treatment of cancer, although cleared for use in Canada, are not in circulation. The reason? Cost as compared to the therapeutic equivalents.

$1:

Erbitux: A full course of drug therapy costs about $56,000 - estimates the cancer Advocacy Coalition of Canada.

The provincial drug programs are huge and can buy in bulk but that advantage is negated when it comes to cancer treatment in colon cases because the numbers effected are so small and the treatment for it is so new and as yet unverified in their effectiveness and disproportionally expensive. This is why for the rates of colon cancer in the US (for the people who have cover) vs Canada the US has a larger number of colon cancer survivors and a higher rate of successful colonoscopies. The same thing happens with hip surgeries as they are still considered not immediately life threatening so people can end up waiting. However, the system can adapt and there is now more priority on that. As a result the wait times have come down a great deal.

When it comes to experimental and high cost drugs the system is slow to react and in that aspect the US system does have some short term advantages. However, with inadequate trial you could end up with another snake oil cure that gives the mirage of a cure but ends up down the road as another Thalidomide.

So what happens in Canada in such cases they have longer trials for example Alzheimer's Drug Therapy Initiative because of cost and there were not enough trials done on a long term basis:

$1:

The Alzheimer’s Drug Therapy Initiative is a 4-phase project to address a clinical knowledge gap in the use of cholinesterase inhibitors in individuals in the mild to moderate stages of Alzheimer’s disease. The initial phase was the Alzheimer’s Forum held in July 2006, followed by a second planning phase. We are now in the third phase, studying the effectiveness of these medications. The fourth phase will be the evaluation of the data gathered through the associated studies.

Even though other provincial programs do cover this drug BC went this rout to better target the use as the cost is high and the results as of yet are still inconclusive.

In the short term (especially if your suffering) this delay may make the US system of drug approval and cover better but this is not an imprudent reaction by the system itself and the end result is better health care for all at a lower cost. The alternative is covering every high cost wonder drug that comes out as soon as it is on the market that may end up being ineffective or worse killing all the while the costs for such treatments are a huge for dubious results.

My foster Dad has Renal Cell Carcinoma, he was on Sunitinib and Sorafenib it cost him upwards of 6,000 a month, fortunately his pension covered the cost.

[Scape]

Yikes, I know! The thing is there are now so many treatments that are in the development stages that are very promising but at a huge cost. I don't think any system can afford such costs up front and sadly the only way to get this covered is if you have the coin up front until such treatments become more mainstream and the costs come down. It's like everyone wanted the new blu-ray player even though they were charging a $1k a player that had dubious quality when they 1st come out when if you wait 2 years they are practically giving them away and have much greater reliability.

[llama66]

Chagrin Chagrin:

llama66 llama66:

no, its not a I win because I say so attitude, I've been in the Canadian System more times then I'd like, and when you guys go on about how our system is flawed, and you actually haven't been here to try it out, that tells me you don't respect Canada, when MD makes comments about our National Defense, that tells me you don't respect Canada. so please, don't judge us and when we call you on that shit then act like your not. your making assumptions too bud, so its fine for to assumptions, but the rest of us cannot, grow up, move on. I bid you a good day, sir.

Haha.

I hope you know I am not MD. I never said your system is flawed, how many times do I have to say that? I'm not judging you, either. I'm feeling like you think I'm your enemy, when that isn't the case.

agreed your not MD, it cheeses me that you jumped in on his side right away with out really looking, in my mind. I don't have enemies online, this is a forum, I'll try to defend my points rationally, but being human occasionally (or quite often as I feel quite strongly on this) I will post an emotional response, if you've truly been offended by my comments I offer you my apology, it bothers me to be accused of being anti-american, I'm not, I just don't like people coming onto a forum that I am a member of and post basically shit comments about something that really is one of the greatest things about Canada; our Universal (not free) Health Care System.I know you wouldn't really like it if I came on an American forum and said disparaging comments about the US Marine Corps. or make some pro-Taliban comment (I wouldn't by the way). so anyway take that for what it is.

[Chagrin]

Yeah man, I know what you mean. It would piss me off too I guess I should have looked at what he wrote, my bad.

[back_blastnet]

So now that I've caught up on the 7 pages of writing Its time for me to jump on this train of fun.

As has been mentioned every system has its strengths and flaws. One of the major flaws with the Canadian system that hasn't been mentioned was the stripping of 25 Billion from Health Care Transfers that occurred in the mid-90's. This alone has been the biggest factors in the decline of Canadian Healthcare.

De-regulation in many provinces of Med. School has driven up the costs of going to school and has put many students in the position of seeking the higher payouts offered in the US. It has also driven many out of family practice and into specialists fields where they will earn more as a way to compensate for the higher costs.

That being said, the Canadian Healthcare system I believe works better then the US system for the largest percentage of citizens at a lower cost per capita. I think we can all agree the US system is better for the wealthy. Rich people can afford the best of everything anywhere, why would healthcare be different. In the US the very poor can from time to time be seen, but the government is paying for that and they are paying higher rates for the profit driven services then in Canada.

What I believe the key is that has mostly been missed (though one person mentioned it) in this discussion is that middle ground. The 'middle class' which is the driving force of all western economies, both the largest generator of wealth and the biggest consumers. For that largest group of people I think the Canadian System wins hands down. In Canada they all get care. Nobody has Travier's types of concerns anymore. And believe me, I still hear stories from my grandmother and others about a time when you didn't get to take your child home until you paid the bill. Its expensive enough bringing a new child into the mix without thousands more out of pocket.

For ManifestDestiny though I think I should make a different type of argument. As a business owner, your business is paying for your family's health coverage. I'm going to go on the assumption that all your employees share similar coverage. That is a cost being incurred by your business a 'health tax' if you will. This I'm sure is in the form of a contract with a healthprovider. Like any form of insurance the more claims on it, the more likely your premiums are to go up. Plus Insurance being profit driven(not to mention everyone in between) Odds of your premiums ever going down are slim (plus should the business ever get smaller, it will cost more per person as you lose bulk discounts).

Would it not save your company money if it no longer had to pay this fee, but rather paid a much smaller/per person health tax, that ensured everyone was covered? Plus it would level the playing field as all your competitors would have the same fees.

Simple economies of Scale come into play in a BIG way. The more people paying into the one system(especially if its administered on an at cost model) the cheaper it will be for each individual/business. The greater influence it can have on the system (slowing the rise in the cost of prescription drugs, fees for professionals, everyone).

In the article that started the discussion Obama mentions that the US Government spends 1/6th of its money on healthcare and the number of people with no coverage is larger then the entire population of Canada. Plus the coverage they are paying for is overpriced because of the way the system work.

Nothing is free but as an individual looking out for #1, its in my best interest to have the lowest costing system that's always going to cover me regardless of my situation.

The lawyer lobby was mentioned earlier, but they are nothing compared to the healthlobby on the hill. There are double the number of health lobbyists as there are congressmen/women.
Here's a link to an article on health lobby spending:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/ ... 6-c?ecoll=

and for fun an article on Michael Moore's website on the subject:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php?id=1236

There's so much more to say on the issue, but I think Canada has it more right then wrong and as Canadians we should be working towards ensuring it continues to get better.

[canadian1971]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

canadian1971 canadian1971:

It's free in the sense that it does not cost you money out of pocket.

Like the fire department is free....and police services are free...and libraries are free...and grade school is free...etc etc.

Do you look at your tax bill ever cause I do and broken down on my property tax bill is where the money goes and every 6 months I have to pay this bill. All of the things you just stated are not free at all.

Ignorance is bliss I guess?

I KNOW THEY ARE NOT FREE.....I am stating that health care here is like those examples...YES they cost money but you don't pay when you need them.....We don't open our wallet to pay a doctor.....We don't open our wallet to pay the fireman after he puts out a fire....We don't open our wallet to pay a police officer to investigate a crime....Those "Taxes" that we pay into every day take care of things like that....and if I don't ever need those services then for me, that's fine.....someone else will need them and I'm enough of a socialist that it doesn't bother me at all.

Your "property taxes" pays for that sewer line so your house doesn't smell like shit. It pays for the water pumped through those pipes to your tap. It helps pay for the road that your house sits on....so you can't use that as an example....it is completely irrelavant to health care.

Ignorance is bliss indeed.

[ManifestDestiny]

Chagrin Chagrin:

Yeah man, I know what you mean. It would piss me off too I guess I should have looked at what he wrote, my bad.

Ok really what did I write that was so bad???


Guess its ok for them to spread lies about how people are dying in the street due to lack of medical care here in the USA.

And just so people know I lived in Canada for a year and a half. never got sick when I lived there, have not been sick in a long time. (on this thread the amount that people claim they are sick would put all stats to shame, I think people are telling computer tales)But most people I talk to dont really like their own system the only thing they do like is that it is not the American system!!! how stupid is that!!!

[Scape]

Wait, are you talking about false claims or the premise of health insurance itself? I mean if your not sick you still pay for insurance just like you pay for auto insurance even if you have not been in an accident. It's the same premise.

[llama66]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

Chagrin Chagrin:

Yeah man, I know what you mean. It would piss me off too I guess I should have looked at what he wrote, my bad.

Ok really what did I write that was so bad???


Guess its ok for them to spread lies about how people are dying in the street due to lack of medical care here in the USA.

And just so people know I lived in Canada for a year and a half. never got sick when I lived there, have not been sick in a long time. (on this thread the amount that people claim they are sick would put all stats to shame, I think people are telling computer tales)But most people I talk to dont really like their own system the only thing they do like is that it is not the American system!!! how stupid is that!!!

damn you caught me, I never had surgery, I never had an embolism, I never was in the hospital...but wait...whats this? photos of my leg taken 3 minutes ago showing scars from surgery?



yeah thats right you still don't know what your talking about, don't come onto a Canadian forum and slag us. you like your system fine. don't come here and preach your system is better when its not.
p.s. if I had the paperwork from the embolism I photograph that too...

[Brenda]

That healed quite nicely!