[Dayseed]

uwish uwish:

don't let that get in the way of Dayseed delusion outbursts.

Wheeee! Look at the depths uwish has sunk! Now it's just one off-topic sentence instead of two!

Ridentrain,

You can agree to whatever you want, but I agree that you've not yet managed to reconcile your position that the cops' behaviour was inappropriate and their supposed recklessness was criminal with the Crown's position that you're flat-ass wrong.

Oh, and the Crown agreed with me.

Derby,

Agreed. This simply isn't the incident that's going to cement discontinuing taser use nor is Dziekanski the poster-child for overzealous cops. Those looking to push an agenda, Robair, uwish, Ridendatrain, bootlegga, jason987234 and any others I missed are going to actually have to suck it up and move on from this one.

[Wada]

Everybody ought to have a Tazer and down with staplers, eh!

[bootlegga]

Dayseed Dayseed:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Sorry, but you don't know shit about me. I could have taken law courses and you would never know, unless I told you so. Hardly a post worthy of a "Master Debator"...

So what if I don't know shit about you? You assume you're worth the effort. There's nothing in any of your posts to suggest you took law courses. I have yet to see anything which purports knowlege and you certainly don't bother yourself with specifics regarding the law. It appears that my surmisings are correct...much akin to my position on the Dziekanski tasering.

Also, I notice your cowardice in not addressing that the position of those persons possessed of both evidence and knowledge came to the same conclusion I did, which is a complete antithesis of your position. Does it make you wrong? Yes, it sure does. Otherwise, the Crown, under tremendous public pressure to adopt your reasoning, adopted mine despite said pressure.

$1:

If you just want to toss insults around, I'm not interested in that game either...

Well, here's where you blow your assumed moral highground. You say you're not interested in insults and insinuate that's all I'm doing. A resounding failure on both points for you. Firstly, I've posted links, articles and drawn relevant conclusions from each; I've crafted arguments founded on logic which have silenced critics of the RCMP's actions. Secondly, you yourself can't abstain from insults in the very same post you deride them. Saying it's hardly worth the "Master Debator" award is an insult. So, you're a hypocrite.

And your choice of music sucks fucking donkey dick.

$1:

And I don't go to bars, they're a waste of time and money.

See? Now I know shit about you despite not wanting to. You're anti-social. Congratulations??

Nope, you still don't know shit about me.

Posting an opinion means nothing in reality. Just because my opinion of bars is that they are a waste of time and money, does not make me anti-social. Posting an opinion on how cops get off easy doesn't mean I don't know anything about the law either.

Same goes for your crack about my choice of music sucking. That's an opinion you're entitled to, but it doesn't mean I should automatically assume you're a music critic now does it?

You're a Master debator alright...flame on MacDuff.

[Zipperfish]

Thanos Thanos:

Ever see a big angry bouncer in a bar take all the piss out of some belligerent drunken wanker by slapping a full nelson on them and then toss them up against a wall or face-first onto the ground? Well, that's what the police used to be able to do to physically subdue troublemakers and you never heard too much about people dying because of it. The trouble is that they're no longer allowed to do it. If the civil liberties lawyers and the shit disturbers in the cop-hating media hadn't made it impossible for the police to use choke-holds and batons to subdue people then most of these folks who've died from taser use would still be alive today. Lay the blame squarely where it belongs and that's on those who have gone out of their way to make the job of the police far more difficult, and in many cases virtually impossible, for the officers to successfully perform.

I've been the big angry bouncer throwing beliggerant drunks out of bars, and I got the scars to prove it. That is a lot of years ago now! I was never much into it, but some of the other boys liked to take the more bellicose drunks out back for a shit-kicking. I snapped on a guy once, but he'd just finished sticking a broken beer bottle into my buddy's neck. Ahhh, Winnipeg, how I miss thee!

Choke holds kill people. Police are free to use them, I believe, but they are considered lethal force. Batons are still issued, though they are the fancy telscoping kind now.

Police are not free, nor should they be free, to kill people unless they are defending their own lives or the lives of others. And when someone dies in police custody there is a big stink the media and that is exactly the way it should be in my books. Call the media cop-haters if you want, but that's the price you pay for a free press.

[uwish]

Dayseed Dayseed:

uwish uwish:

don't let that get in the way of Dayseed delusion outbursts.

Wheeee! Look at the depths uwish has sunk! Now it's just one off-topic sentence instead of two!

Ridentrain,

You can agree to whatever you want, but I agree that you've not yet managed to reconcile your position that the cops' behaviour was inappropriate and their supposed recklessness was criminal with the Crown's position that you're flat-ass wrong.

Oh, and the Crown agreed with me.

Derby,

Agreed. This simply isn't the incident that's going to cement discontinuing taser use nor is Dziekanski the poster-child for overzealous cops. Those looking to push an agenda, Robair, uwish, Ridendatrain, bootlegga, jason987234 and any others I missed are going to actually have to suck it up and move on from this one.

I am not pushing any agenda, I only stated and opinion that was supported by people other than 'armchair quarterbacks' as you like to comment on.

Obviously we are in dissagreement fine. Makes for a more interesting debate, but I never resorted to name calling or insults of a personal nature just because my opinion differed than yours.

As another asside to this, if these officers felt they were completely just in their actions, why did they try to hide it??

[Dayseed]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Nope, you still don't know shit about me.

Oh yes I do. I know you're closed-minded. The Crown announced that they aren't seeking charges against the officers based on a lack of evidence, but that doesn't sway your opinion. In fact, you post that you intend to remain resolute DESPITE what the Crown had to say.

$1:

Posting an opinion means nothing in reality. Just because my opinion of bars is that they are a waste of time and money, does not make me anti-social. Posting an opinion on how cops get off easy doesn't mean I don't know anything about the law either.

Oh, I agree, opinions mean shit-all. Which is why mine come with supporting evidence. In fact, my opinions are based on the evidence. Unlike others, I don't form an opinion and then cast about for choice morsels which support my preconceived, and often times incorrigible, opinion. See above for evidence concerning how I came to believe you're close-minded.

If you know something about the law, post it AND your supporting evidence. Don't just make claims sans bolster. It's the same reason your math teacher wanted you to show your work.

$1:

Same goes for your crack about my choice of music sucking. That's an opinion you're entitled to, but it doesn't mean I should automatically assume you're a music critic now does it?

Well, if I criticize music, it makes me a music critic, doesn't it? That was a poorly played point on your part...

$1:

You're a Master debator alright...flame on MacDuff.

Thanks Cementhead!

[EyeBrock]

DerbyX DerbyX:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPe_hf7aBXM

2:49 of the video he throws a chair after apparently trying to have been calmed down by a woman. The comment heard by the videographer is "ohh, right in front of the cops too", cops responding to reports of a violent man throwing things who just happens to be throwing something right in front of them.

Prior to that he was quite obviously brandishing a chair as a weapon and appeared to be threatening staff with it or empling that anybody approaching him would be hit. This is what they would be reporting to the police on the phone.

The woman intervened at her own rish and that might have ended differently too with her being hurt or worse.

He then throws another chair (2:56) which looks like it was at the person in front of the video camera but likely just at the bar in front of them. Yet another violent act in front of the cops or in this case security men dressed in yellow.

He then picks up yet another chair (3:04) and we shortly hear "sir, sir". He puts that down and appears to calm down but at (3:52) picks up another chair.

You can see him still pushing/handling the chair around (4:39) and can shortly be heard screaming. At (3:52) he appears to have the chair in front of him and/or holding it in front of him.

(4:58) the 4 RCMP officers show up. (5:21) he throws his hands up abpruptly and moves away from the police quickly. Thats not calming down. (5:28) After moving away from him he gives no indication he is calming down and is instead being combative. Lets remember that the RCMP were fielding reports of a man going nuts and throwing things up until they arrived on the scene.

It was incumbent upon a foreigner in a foreign airport to not behave in this manner in the first place and when 4 uniformed police show up to either make every effort to not give them any reason to suspect you are escalating the violence.

Mr Diezinskis actions are the reason he is dead not the police.

My one experience with El-Al is being shunted to their service during an air Canada strike. Not only did we have to show up 4 hours early but we went through a rigourous screening procedure that taxed everyones nerves. They went through all my backpack including personal photos askign questions about the photos. Where I went, who I saw, etc. Then they changed my answers and repeated them back to me to catch me in a lie, things such as "did you enjoy your trip to Wales" when I had told them the photos were from Scotland.

At all times I saw at least 4 armed men with sub-machine guns as well as the guys interviewing me were armed.

If I had freaked out and got violent I might very well have been shot.

His death is a tragedy of course and he didn't deserve to die but his actions certainly were the ultimate cause of his demise.

Ok, Derby, why would anybody go to Wales? It was an obvious trick....and Dayseed, excellent posts despite the uneducated usual anti-cop crowd.

And I agree on a Federal SIU, but we have discussed all this before. The same uninformed posts are to be expected but we chaps in blue appreciate an informed opinion.
The only thing the YVR RCMP are guilty of is piss poor communications and a terrible relationship with the media. I think the Ontario view that only Sgt's carry Tasers is the way to go.

[Dayseed]

uwish uwish:

I am not pushing any agenda, I only stated and opinion that was supported by people other than 'armchair quarterbacks' as you like to comment on.

If you're not pushing an agenda, your view of the case should be changing based on the Crown's much more learned opinion. If you can't adopt a new position, and you continue on with your old one in spite, you're agenda-pushing. Secondly, I don't care what the vox populi is crying; the law is meant to transcend mobocracy, which in this case it did. The Crown made a decision based on what the officers faced when they entered the room and how they dealt with it in light of their training and good-faith beliefs in the benigness of the taser. They didn't base their decision solely on the death of Dziekanski and then look for the scape-goat; which is what you people wanted.

$1:

Obviously we are in dissagreement fine. Makes for a more interesting debate, but I never resorted to name calling or insults of a personal nature just because my opinion differed than yours.

You resorted ot name calling AND personal insults. Here are a few choice ones.

uwish you hadn't said that... uwish you hadn't said that...:

I find inferior intellect usually results in personal attacks, name calling and general mental breakdowns.

Yup, here you are insulting me by saying I have an inferior intellect.

$1:

inflamed Dayseed who freely admitted he will always defend the police,

That's a nice straw-man argumentative fallacy...and a pure fallacy too. Way to lie uwish!

$1:

good to know clowns like dayseed are cops

Oh noes! There's ANOTHER insult from somebody trying to claim they didn't insult!

$1:

and the only one who is embarrassing himself on here is you

Sigh...another insult.

See why you need to be thoroughly humiliated? You don't understand what you did even as little as yesterday. Fuck!

$1:

As another asside to this, if these officers felt they were completely just in their actions, why did they try to hide it??

Yup, after the incident, they all ran into the woods never to be heard from again. Goddamn, is this what you consider rebuttal? Where's your evidence of "they tried to hide it"?

[Dayseed]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Ok, Derby, why would anybody go to Wales? It was an obvious trick....and Dayseed, excellent posts despite the uneducated usual anti-cop crowd.

And I agree on a Federal SIU, but we have discussed all this before. The same uninformed posts are to be expected but we chaps in blue appreciate an informed opinion.
The only thing the YVR RCMP are guilty of is piss poor communications and a terrible relationship with the media. I think the Ontario view that only Sgt's carry Tasers is the way to go.

Eyebrock,

It's a tough road when the simpletons among us simply want the world divided into "Cop-Lover" or "Cop-Hater". By labelling me as a "Cop-Lover" (see how uwish tried to in the above post), people whose argument has otherwise failed, can dismiss my argument rather than refute it. It's a childish tactic and the product of a weak-mind. Even worse, it's an argumentative fallacy, the ad-hominem attack, that would get any first year history student a strip torn off his ass if he pulled that stunt in a seminar or tutorial.

The police as a whole certainly aren't perfect, and there are examples of their mistakes, simple or flagrantly evil, that unfortunately exist in Canada. But a careful analysis of Dziekanski simply doesn't support the belief that the cops acted negligently, improperly or evilaly...evilly...evilistic..........fiendish.

Good luck out there Eyebrock, I pity the misunderstandings that befall you daily and thanks for risking your ass to protect mine.

[Dayseed]

jason700 jason700:

Is Mustang1 and Dayseed the same person?

Goddammit Jason Sonier, ARE Mustang1 and Dayseed the same person. Not IS, ARE.

And the answer is no.

Also, it's funny that your reputation score against me rated a ZERO! Life imitating art?

[EyeBrock]

Dayseed Dayseed:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Ok, Derby, why would anybody go to Wales? It was an obvious trick....and Dayseed, excellent posts despite the uneducated usual anti-cop crowd.

And I agree on a Federal SIU, but we have discussed all this before. The same uninformed posts are to be expected but we chaps in blue appreciate an informed opinion.
The only thing the YVR RCMP are guilty of is piss poor communications and a terrible relationship with the media. I think the Ontario view that only Sgt's carry Tasers is the way to go.

Eyebrock,

It's a tough road when the simpletons among us simply want the world divided into "Cop-Lover" or "Cop-Hater". By labelling me as a "Cop-Lover" (see how uwish tried to in the above post), people whose argument has otherwise failed, can dismiss my argument rather than refute it. It's a childish tactic and the product of a weak-mind. Even worse, it's an argumentative fallacy, the ad-hominem attack, that would get any first year history student a strip torn off his ass if he pulled that stunt in a seminar or tutorial.

The police as a whole certainly aren't perfect, and there are examples of their mistakes, simple or flagrantly evil, that unfortunately exist in Canada. But a careful analysis of Dziekanski simply doesn't support the belief that the cops acted negligently, improperly or evilaly...evilly...evilistic..........fiendish.

Good luck out there Eyebrock, I pity the misunderstandings that befall you daily and thanks for risking your ass to protect mine.

No probs mate, you are not in a minority in your views, but I well appreciate the comments.
The Mounties didn't do a great job on this but they are a Service/Force that is not in a good place and suffers from lack of leadership.
Would I have done the same as them that day? Maybe. But we are all looking way more carefully at when Taser's are used these days.

A lot of us are asking why so many people are dyeing after being zapped, despite Taser International telling us that they are totally safe.
It still is a better option than a 40 Cal attitude re-adjustment but I'm perturbed that Taser International are so aggressive at any inquests and that they hire very expensive lawyers.
Something is not quite right.

Hey, Merry Christmas!

[uwish]

my distinction in insults is more aimed at behaviour than personal.

Calling someone delusional or pointing out spelling mistakes is hardly a personal attack.

on the other hand, referring to someone as retarded or a jackass or calling them stupid or any other combination of playgrounds names, is personal. It is directed at the individual not their behaviour.

[Dayseed]

uwish uwish:

my distinction in insults is more aimed at behaviour than personal.

Calling someone delusional or pointing out spelling mistakes is hardly a personal attack.

on the other hand, referring to someone as retarded or a jackass or calling them stupid or any other combination of playgrounds names, is personal. It is directed at the individual not their behaviour.

Yet you also gloss over the "clown" bit. "Clowns like Dayseed". There's zilch there directed at my behaviour; just ad hominem insults. And how is stating I have an inferior intellect directed at my behaviour?

Sorry uwish, but your rationalizations fall way short of the mark of even smelling remotely convincing. You're guilty of the very thing you decry. That makes you a hypocrite. Also, you insult my intelligence, and your own, when you think that your bullshit artifice of behaviour/personal would pass muster.

You've completely fucked up on this thread from stem to gudgeon. Moreover, don't think I didn't notice you abandoning your whiny "I'm not pushing an agenda!" when you had to reconcile not altering your opinion with changing evidence. I caught you on that too.

If you weren't done before, you're done now. Piss off and take your travelling road-show to the next town; maybe there you'll find an idiot you can sucker with it.

[Mustang1]

Dayseed Dayseed:

jason700 jason700:

Is Mustang1 and Dayseed the same person?

Goddammit Jason Sonier, ARE Mustang1 and Dayseed the same person. Not IS, ARE.

And the answer is no.

Also, it's funny that your reputation score against me rated a ZERO! Life imitating art?

Jay-Jay is not very swift. He likes coloring and Treehouse. He also likes making a complete ass of himself. He's also entertaining. Want proof? Check out this tool's attempt at politics. It's priceless

[uwish]

Dayseed Dayseed:

uwish uwish:

my distinction in insults is more aimed at behaviour than personal.

Calling someone delusional or pointing out spelling mistakes is hardly a personal attack.

on the other hand, referring to someone as retarded or a jackass or calling them stupid or any other combination of playgrounds names, is personal. It is directed at the individual not their behaviour.

Yet you also gloss over the "clown" bit. "Clowns like Dayseed". There's zilch there directed at my behaviour; just ad hominem insults. And how is stating I have an inferior intellect directed at my behaviour?

Sorry uwish, but your rationalizations fall way short of the mark of even smelling remotely convincing. You're guilty of the very thing you decry. That makes you a hypocrite. Also, you insult my intelligence, and your own, when you think that your bullshit artifice of behaviour/personal would pass muster.

You've completely fucked up on this thread from stem to gudgeon. Moreover, don't think I didn't notice you abandoning your whiny "I'm not pushing an agenda!" when you had to reconcile not altering your opinion with changing evidence. I caught you on that too.

If you weren't done before, you're done now. Piss off and take your travelling road-show to the next town; maybe there you'll find an idiot you can sucker with it.

already found one...and your taking it hook line and sinker