[llama66]

is it fair that 35% of the population gets to dictate the government to the other 65%?

[martin14]

llama66 llama66:

is it fair that 35% of the population gets to dictate the government to the other 65%?

Dude, PM Dopey got 38%, not 35.

Makes all the difference, don't you know ?

[llama66]

martin14 martin14:

llama66 llama66:

is it fair that 35% of the population gets to dictate the government to the other 65%?

Dude, PM Dopey got 38%, not 35.

Makes all the difference, don't you know ?

My mistake.

[Prof_Chomsky]

martin14 martin14:

I'm sorry, you haven't got a clue. You just don't.

By your own words, the AfD is not one seat, they are now the official opposition
in Germany. And they continue to grow.

5s and Lega now run the government in Italy.


And watch the election in Sweden.
The party with the highest percentage will not form a government.. is that fair ?

Those opposition parties were elected... by the people. That's democracy. Meanwhile Trump got elected with a minority of the popular vote, likely due to Russian interference, and the Left is reeling from it in a FPTP system.

It doesn't matter if one party gets 31% of the vote if the next 2 get 30% each and form a coalition government. That means 60% of the population are getting some of what they want, rather than 31% getting exactly what they want - or rather, getting the exact party they voted for even though they likely disagree with a large proportion of that party's politics. That's the issue with FPTP. Almost everyone here complains about their own "party" politics. I'm liberal, but hate the way they handle immigration, multiculturalism, tax on the wealthy, unions, and a lot more. But they are better than voting for Maxime so I compromise. With proportional representation I can vote for someone, or a party, who aligns almost entirely to my beliefs. Then let the delegates do what politicians are supposed to do, politic it out in Ottawa and come to the best compromise.

[martin14]

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

Then let the delegates do what politicians are supposed to do, politic it out in Ottawa and come to the best compromise.

This is one part you don't get.
They don't 'politic it out'.

They buy each other off.

With taxpayer money, of course.

[Prof_Chomsky]

martin14 martin14:

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

Then let the delegates do what politicians are supposed to do, politic it out in Ottawa and come to the best compromise.

This is one part you don't get.
They don't 'politic it out'.

They buy each other off.

With taxpayer money, of course.

Now you're just floundering.
First you think FPTP is better than proportional representation because it essentially disenfranchises people you disagree with, which is the opposite of democracy.
Now you think it shouldn't happen because you can't trust the politicians that are elected not to be dirty... but how is that any different than FPTP politicians?

And your BS statements about crazy opposition parties are, as always, based in fear and disinformation. in Germany AfD has 1/7th of the seats. That's tiny. And all it does is force the other mainstream parties to notice that while 14% of their population is so against immigration they are becoming racist, they may want to change their policies a little bit more to be inline with their citizens or risk a full on revolt to the AfD.

Both 5s and Lega have been forced to soften their "extreme" policies in order to form a coalition government in Italy. And Sweden hasn't even voted yet.

That's the point of proportional government. Everyone gets heard. Crazies don't get into power because people know their crazy. But when new parties start cropping up left right and center because people feel their government is so out of touch, it forces mainstream politicians to listen. The alternative in FPTP is Trump. People get so incredibly fed up with the same old BS that they elect a moron, simply because he's different. That's dangerous.

[martin14]

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

Now you're just floundering.

Nope, bursting your ivory tower bubbles... la la la everything is perfect.. no it isn't.

$1:

Now you think it shouldn't happen because you can't trust the politicians that are elected not to be dirty... but how is that any different than FPTP politicians?

It isn't. But it forces parties to run a National agenda, rather
than regional or batshit local interests.

$1:

in Germany AfD has 1/7th of the seats. That's tiny. And all it does is force the other mainstream parties to notice that while 14% of their population is so against immigration they are becoming racist, they may want to change their policies a little bit more to be inline with their citizens or risk a full on revolt to the AfD.

Look, we can have a conversation, or you can pull out the whining
'everyone who disagrees with me is a racist Nazi' card.
Pretty early to Godwin the thread.

$1:

Both 5s and Lega have been forced to soften their "extreme" policies in order to form a coalition government in Italy.

Post proof, because they haven't softened much.
Illegal migrants to Italy is almost zero now.

$1:

That's the point of proportional government. Everyone gets heard. Crazies don't get into power because people know their crazy. But when new parties start cropping up left right and center because people feel their government is so out of touch, it forces mainstream politicians to listen.

No, everyone gets paid off for votes.
Since you already Godwinned and tapped out, I'll end with this.

PR brought a certain guy to power in 1933.
That alone should be enough for the reasonable person to recognize
that PR is dumbest thing ever invented.

Of course, those who love PR, are simply looking for their own 1933 guy.

[llama66]

$1:

Of course, those who love PR, are simply looking for their own 1933 guy.

Who is this mysterious man? I demand you tell me Reich now!

[Prof_Chomsky]

martin14 martin14:

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

Now you're just floundering.

Nope, bursting your ivory tower bubbles... la la la everything is perfect.. no it isn't.

$1:

Now you think it shouldn't happen because you can't trust the politicians that are elected not to be dirty... but how is that any different than FPTP politicians?

It isn't. But it forces parties to run a National agenda, rather
than regional or batshit local interests.

$1:

in Germany AfD has 1/7th of the seats. That's tiny. And all it does is force the other mainstream parties to notice that while 14% of their population is so against immigration they are becoming racist, they may want to change their policies a little bit more to be inline with their citizens or risk a full on revolt to the AfD.

Look, we can have a conversation, or you can pull out the whining
'everyone who disagrees with me is a racist Nazi' card.
Pretty early to Godwin the thread.

$1:

Both 5s and Lega have been forced to soften their "extreme" policies in order to form a coalition government in Italy.

Post proof, because they haven't softened much.
Illegal migrants to Italy is almost zero now.

$1:

That's the point of proportional government. Everyone gets heard. Crazies don't get into power because people know their crazy. But when new parties start cropping up left right and center because people feel their government is so out of touch, it forces mainstream politicians to listen.

No, everyone gets paid off for votes.
Since you already Godwinned and tapped out, I'll end with this.

PR brought a certain guy to power in 1933.
That alone should be enough for the reasonable person to recognize
that PR is dumbest thing ever invented.

Of course, those who love PR, are simply looking for their own 1933 guy.

There really is no point. You've already made a half dozen statement of "facts" that are completely fabricated, then tried to redirect that BS on to me. Your opinion is clearly based solely in your own unfounded fears. You can't argue facts with someone's emotion.

[Zipperfish]

I really don't see the problem with our current system. The whole proportional representation thing seems to me to be a solution in search of a problem.

[Prof_Chomsky]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I really don't see the problem with our current system. The whole proportional representation thing seems to me to be a solution in search of a problem.

Read the thread from the top. The issue is you get parties in power with a majority who only won 35% of the vote. That doesn't seem like democracy. It seems like an oddly created system that allows for loopholes to dictate the winner.

It doesn't even have to be proportional. Stack voting is good too. I choose Party X as first. But they have almost no chance of winning, so in the event that party can't win a seat, don't throw my vote away, my next choice is party Z because I don't like Party Y at all.
Otherwise I'm forced to never vote for Party X because I know if I don't vote for Party Z, Party Y is going to win and I don't like them.

[llama66]

PR may not work in Europe, Europe is small and already regionalized, but it may work in Canada. Canada is half a continent in size, it makes sense that maybe more regional voices are needed. I have nothing in common with a Quebecois, yet I'm forced to vote for a party that'll give MY money to pay for projects thousands of kilometers away. Maybe we need a Southern Albertan voice in the House of Commons, a voice that represents the people and problems faced by Albertans, because that voice is clearly being ignored for the loud chorus of the rest of the nation's people.

I still say give PR a chance.