[Gunnair]

Proculation Proculation:

Morality should be based on philosophy and philosophy is the study of rationality and truth. There's no grey zone in that.

That's a very grey zone indeed.

Philosophy, rationality and truth are in no way shape or form absolutes unless you wish to identify them as relative absolutes.

[BartSimpson]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Proculation Proculation:

Morality should be based on philosophy and philosophy is the study of rationality and truth. There's no grey zone in that.

That's a very grey zone indeed.

Philosophy, rationality and truth are in no way shape or form absolutes unless you wish to identify them as relative absolutes.

Tell that to the CKA Moderation team about the ToS.

[Proculation]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Proculation Proculation:

Morality should be based on philosophy and philosophy is the study of rationality and truth. There's no grey zone in that.

That's a very grey zone indeed.

Philosophy, rationality and truth are in no way shape or form absolutes unless you wish to identify them as relative absolutes.

Relative absolute ?
The only way I would see a grey zone is if you want to redefine ethics and morality and attempting to 'create' a compromise between two bases of morality. (i.e.: a morality based on mysticism and a morality based on rationality). That's why I said "should be based" on philosophy.

If you base your morality on tribalism and feud, that's your 'right' but it doesn't mean it's right. Thus, contradicting yourself.

[Gunnair]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Proculation Proculation:

Morality should be based on philosophy and philosophy is the study of rationality and truth. There's no grey zone in that.

That's a very grey zone indeed.

Philosophy, rationality and truth are in no way shape or form absolutes unless you wish to identify them as relative absolutes.

Tell that to the CKA Moderation team about the ToS.

Life is much easier under absolutes, eh?

[Gunnair]

Proculation Proculation:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Proculation Proculation:

Morality should be based on philosophy and philosophy is the study of rationality and truth. There's no grey zone in that.

That's a very grey zone indeed.

Philosophy, rationality and truth are in no way shape or form absolutes unless you wish to identify them as relative absolutes.

Relative absolute ?
The only way I would see a grey zone is if you want to redefine ethics and morality and attempting to 'create' a compromise between two bases of morality. (i.e.: a morality based on mysticism and a morality based on rationality). That's why I said "should be based" on philosophy.

If you base your morality on tribalism and feud, that's your 'right' but it doesn't mean it's right.

Relative aboslutes mean exactly that - relative. Your morality is likely to have many differences than mine. We've discussed your negative views on race mixing for example - a fairly significant moral deviation from mine. I would imagine you believe your morality to be absolutely correct and i believe mine to be absolutely correct.

Hence the problem.

[Unsound]

I think there are a few very broad moral ideas that can be said to be absolute. "Thou shalt not murder" for example.

Problem being our interpretations and attempts to fit absolutes into a constantly changing world. "Though shalt not murder" seems simple enough, but is killing someone in battle murder? Or is it ok? How about abortion? Is that murder, or a medical procedure to remove an unwanted growth? What about suicide? Or assisted suicide? All moral people can agree on the basic idea, but we get caught up in the details.

The source of morality is the other big issue. Your average western consevative will generally base it on the bible, or atleast those parts of the bible they like. The further left people go the more likely they'll base it on what "feels" right. Seems to me a lot of the biblical people are doing the same when they pick and choose from the bible. Mostly, I think we get it from what's around us, our society. That's why I agree, in part, that society shares some of the blame when things like this happen, yet... 5 million norwegians haven't killed scores of people.

No society, no matter how far right or left, promotes the idea that murder is ok. No society promotes the idea that killing dozens of innocent children is anything but murder. Yet it happens all the time. Always has.

Obviously the modern "lack" of morality that some people like to talk about when lamenting the declining influence of their own particular brand of morality has little or nothing to do with these kinds of incidents. AS Chris Rock once said "whatever happened to plain old crazy?!"

[PluggyRug]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

Morality isn't a set of equations

Morality is a series of if/then functions which are equations.

For instance:

IF you only have sex with your spouse THEN you need not worry about getting caught.

IF you never steal from people THEN people are more likely to trust you.

IF you say you want a fight THEN you should not be surprised when you get punched in the face.

And one that is timely and current on the forum today:

IF you obey the CKA Terms of Use THEN the Moderators won't suspend your account.

As to morality being subjective then you have to accept that what Breivik did was not wrong and no one should judge him for what he did. Because, goodness gracious, no one wants anyone to call them judgmental.

Sorry, but morals need to be commonly held and commonly accepted as absolutes elsewise society is going to break down as one person after another decides that moral codes don't apply to them.

A few minutes ago I was out to coffee with a coworker who is a convert to Christianity who moved to the USA from Kuwait in order to safely practice his new faith. I've not had a chance to look it up yet but he tells me that the Kuwaiti government is now considering the legalization of slavery. Non-Muslims would be bought and sold in Kuwait because under the Islamic worldview it's okay to enslave non-Muslims.

Now, are you going to say that the Kuwaitis are morally wrong for their point of view? Or are you going to be non-judgmental and let them enslave Westerners, Asians, and Africans because morality is a big, grayish blob of meaningless and outdated traditions that have no place in the modern world?

Now add the ELSE function.........

[Proculation]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Proculation Proculation:

Gunnair Gunnair:

That's a very grey zone indeed.

Philosophy, rationality and truth are in no way shape or form absolutes unless you wish to identify them as relative absolutes.

Relative absolute ?
The only way I would see a grey zone is if you want to redefine ethics and morality and attempting to 'create' a compromise between two bases of morality. (i.e.: a morality based on mysticism and a morality based on rationality). That's why I said "should be based" on philosophy.

If you base your morality on tribalism and feud, that's your 'right' but it doesn't mean it's right.

Relative aboslutes mean exactly that - relative. Your morality is likely to have many differences than mine. We've discussed your negative views on race mixing for example - a fairly significant moral deviation from mine. I would imagine you believe your morality to be absolutely correct and i believe mine to be absolutely correct.

Hence the problem.

I should say that I am still young and wrote some strange ideas over the last 6 years that I am on CKA. I'm trying to be better and I'm changing, hence my morality and ethics statement.

[Gunnair]

Proculation Proculation:

Gunnair Gunnair:

Proculation Proculation:

Philosophy, rationality and truth are in no way shape or form absolutes unless you wish to identify them as relative absolutes.

Relative absolute ?
The only way I would see a grey zone is if you want to redefine ethics and morality and attempting to 'create' a compromise between two bases of morality. (i.e.: a morality based on mysticism and a morality based on rationality). That's why I said "should be based" on philosophy.

If you base your morality on tribalism and feud, that's your 'right' but it doesn't mean it's right.

Relative aboslutes mean exactly that - relative. Your morality is likely to have many differences than mine. We've discussed your negative views on race mixing for example - a fairly significant moral deviation from mine. I would imagine you believe your morality to be absolutely correct and i believe mine to be absolutely correct.

Hence the problem.

I should say that I am still young and wrote some strange ideas over the last 6 years that I am on CKA. I'm trying to be better and I'm changing, hence my morality and ethics statement.[/quote]

Hence absolutes don't tend to be absolutes now are they?

[Proculation]

As a math fan, the limit towards the infinite leads to the absolute

[Proculation]

In my head, there's no such thing that can be right and wrong. 2+2 cannot equal to 3 and 4 at the same time. There can be an argument about the absolute answer but there is only one true answer.

[herbie]

On a similar note:

There's only 10 kinds of people, those that understand binary and those that don't.

[CommanderSock]

Proculation Proculation:

Morality should be based on philosophy and philosophy is the study of rationality and truth. There's no grey zone in that.

Morality is highly subjective. It is not based on rationality at all, but rather cultural norms.

70 years ago it was considered morally repugnant for a black man to marry a white woman in most western countries. Today it's completely normal. 100 years ago it was immoral for women to hold certain occupational positions, today it's morally wrong to hold her back.

Lest we talk of cross cultural morality. What's morally accepted in Canada, may not be morally accepted in India.

Morality is tied to our current cultural standards and it shifts and changes as we change our beliefs or are infused with new ones.

[andyt]

But there are some common threads throughout cultures as well. As Unsound wrote - don't murder is one. Do unto others - a version of that has been taught in many cultures. Don't steal, don't lie as well. They just get interpreted differently in different cultures.

So it's not to say that there's some ambiguity of morality between cultures means that anything goes.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

herbie herbie:

On a similar note:

There's only 10 kinds of people, those that understand binary and those that don't.

*smacks you upside the head for that one*

Seriously, that was a real groaner