[Lemmy]

commanderkai commanderkai:

The media, store owners who windows will be smashed in, the people whose cars would be torched, local residents, tourists, etc.

But windows were smashed and cars were torched anyway. The few that did those things could have easily been rounded up by 4 or 8 cops on regular patrol. 300 cops in riot gear weren't needed.

commanderkai commanderkai:

I don't get it. This is now the fault of police preemptively planning security arrangements for the G20? The Black Bloc would be around, with or without police presence. The "legitimate" protesters will still give them cover for their violent actions. Might as well be ready for them.

Maybe, but I don't think so. The Black Bloc wouldn't have even shown up if there wasn't a wall of cops to throw shit at.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Maybe the police aren't as "proportional" enough, or something.

Investing in good surveillence and targeting the trouble makers would have been more proportional.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Oh and thanks for your service Eyebrock. Be careful out there and hopefully you catch some of these Black Block fucktards.

Agreed. I think the cops did a great job. My beef is with the higher-ups that put them in that position in the first place.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

But windows were smashed and cars were torched anyway. The few that did those things could have easily been rounded up by 4 or 8 cops on regular patrol. 300 cops in riot gear weren't needed.

And how much more damage do you think there would have been if there hadn't been a heavy police presence? These dickwads aren't known for their moderation.

[Lemmy]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

And how much more damage do you think there would have been if there hadn't been a heavy police presence? These dickwads aren't known for their moderation.

I'm suggesting that there may have been less damage. The reason those dickwads went there was to throw shit at cops. No cops, no reason for the dickwads to bother showing up.

[commanderkai]

Lemmy Lemmy:

But windows were smashed and cars were torched anyway. The few that did those things could have easily been rounded up by 4 or 8 cops on regular patrol. 300 cops in riot gear weren't needed.

You really think it's that simple? The Black Bloc move in and out of the legitimate protesters. The "legitimate" protesters don't really seem to care that these sorts of bastards are within their midst.

So, those cops on regular patrol would have put themselves at unnecessary risk trying to wade through these legitimate protesters when a Black Bloc member might toss a brick at their head from behind. Or, by the time they even get to the scene, the Black Bloc member might have easily made their way to the next car or storefront window.

$1:

Maybe, but I don't think so. The Black Bloc wouldn't have even shown up if there wasn't a wall of cops to throw shit at.

Of course they would have. They still had cars to touch and windows to break to spread their "anti-capitalist" message. Throwing shit at cops isn't the only thing they're doing. They're still torching cars, breaking windows, and inciting the "legitimate" protesters to break and torch and smash along with them.


I'm actually very curious. If this was some...hmm, I dunno, a Neo-Nazi march or something that attracted this large police presence, would people really be complaining? I'm just amazed at how violence by these Black Bloc members is now somehow the fault of the police wanting to protect both our political leaders and regular citizens from violence.

[BartSimpson]

http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews ... OH20100629

The black bloc is doing their thing in Greece, too.

$1:

Riot police in Athens fired teargas at a group of black-hooded youths hurling stones and petrol bombs and chanting "Burn parliament," hours before lawmakers were due to debate the sweeping EU/IMF-mandated pension reform.

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFTRE65S2OH20100629

The black bloc is doing their thing in Greece, too.

$1:

Riot police in Athens fired teargas at a group of black-hooded youths hurling stones and petrol bombs and chanting "Burn parliament," hours before lawmakers were due to debate the sweeping EU/IMF-mandated pension reform.

We're probably going to see quite a bit more of that. Quite frankly I'm less concerned about the anarchists than I am the totalitarians who will use this as an excuse to further clamp down on civil rights.

[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

We're probably going to see quite a bit more of that. Quite frankly I'm less concerned about the anarchists than I am the totalitarians who will use this as an excuse to further clamp down on civil rights.

What civil rights have been trampled? These sorts of predictably violent protests have been occurring since the 1998 WTO riots, and yet civil authorities still allow protests at these sorts of events for the last 12 years.

[Zipperfish]

commanderkai commanderkai:

What civil rights have been trampled? These sorts of predictably violent protests have been occurring since the 1998 WTO riots, and yet civil authorities still allow protests at these sorts of events for the last 12 years.

Given the constitutional rights of free speech and free peaceful assembly, authorities shouldn't have much choice but to "allow" protests. But in fact you did see the establishment of "free speech zones" at the 2010 Olympics (prompting the response "I thought all of Canada was a free speech zone.")

[andyt]

between fighting terrorism and black bloc stuff, civil liberties have been infringed quite a bit, including at Toronto with those special secret laws. I gotta say I'd rather be a little less safe but free. Sure, in extreme cases I would agree with some suspension of civil liberties, but again, I'm much more concerned about a gradual push to a corporatocracy with little rights of the average person except to ask how high.

[commanderkai]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Given the constitutional rights of free speech and free peaceful assembly, authorities shouldn't have much choice but to "allow" protests.

Don't you need permits to protest on public property or city streets? That's what I mean by "allow".

Edit: I'm not into organizing protests, so I can't be sure what it entails, however, I don't think it's just as simple as meeting with a few thousand people in the middle of a street.

[andyt]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Don't you need permits to protest on public property or city streets? That's what I mean by "allow".

No. Yes.

[canuckns]

Black Bloc

[andyt]

canuckns canuckns:

Black Bloc

Nah. I can get that stuff for you wholesale. Better yet, steal it - that will show the man. Abbie Hoffman, where art thou.

[commanderkai]

andyt andyt:

commanderkai commanderkai:

Don't you need permits to protest on public property or city streets? That's what I mean by "allow".

No. Yes.

So no in a park, but yes in a street? Anyway, my point is, street protesting have still been occurring even after the WTO riots, even if it means the police have a harder time preventing damage and controlling protests.

Don't get me wrong, protest all you like. But I'd much rather see these protesters actively reject and purge these Black Bloc protesters. But they won't or they can't (I'd argue the former). Kinda reminds me of how some people want political parties to purge their radicals as well.

[andyt]

commanderkai commanderkai:

andyt andyt:

commanderkai commanderkai:

Don't you need permits to protest on public property or city streets? That's what I mean by "allow".

No. Yes.

So no in a park, but yes in a street? Anyway, my point is, street protesting have still been occurring even after the WTO riots, even if it means the police have a harder time preventing damage and controlling protests.

Don't get me wrong, protest all you like. But I'd much rather see these protesters actively reject and purge these Black Bloc protesters. But they won't or they can't (I'd argue the former). Kinda reminds me of how some people want political parties to purge their radicals as well.

You will admit that there have been more infringements on civil rights in recent years, no? Primarily around terrorism, but also we saw it in TO.

I'm not a big protester. But appreciate others who do it right.

I agree the mainstream protesters should do more to disassociate themselves from the Black Blocs - including having their own security detail that tries to prevent the Black Blocs from doing their thing. But the main Black Bloc damage this time was caused absent of any other protesters or police.