[Public_Domain]

[commanderkai]

Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:

The Hammer and Sickle mean a lot more then what a few dead men used it for.

The swastika is a symbol that existed long before Germany was a country, that still doesn't change the fact that the Swastika is one of the identifying symbols of Nazi Germany and the horrors it caused.

[Public_Domain]

[commanderkai]

Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:

The Hammer and Sickle is a symbol used worldwide by many groups. It's a symbol initially designed to show solidarity between Workers and Farmers.

And the swastika was a symbol of Buddhist faith. And then the Nazis used it. Sure, the swastika is still the same symbol for the Buddhists, but they certainly aren't going to parade it around like that might have before the 20th century.

$1:

The idea that the symbol should be repressed is nothing more then an attempt to shut out the Communist voice in the modern world, which is obnoxious.
The Hammer and Sickle is a symbol for not just a political system, but a social system. It expands far farther then the former USSR and is used by almost all Communist factions equally.

Yeah, those other Communist factions aren't exactly beacons of greatness either. But you're right, the symbol shouldn't be repressed. No symbol should be repressed. If somebody wants to wear a swastika, let them. If somebody wants to wear a Hammer and Sickle, let them too. Sadly, the Hammer and Sickle aren't faced with the same stigma as the Swastika when they both represent the oppression and murder of millions.

$1:

If you're going to attack the politics, understand I'm not of the politics you accuse me of. If you're only going to attack the symbol, then it's not a fair
nor appropriate argument against the politics.

So if I attack the politics and the social system of Communism, you're not of that, but if I attack the symbol, it's an unfair attack on the politics? The symbol represents the politics, much like the Bald Eagle and the American flag represents the United States. Or how the dollar sign has grown to represent capitalism and the United States.

[Public_Domain]

[EyeBrock]

At the end of the day, millions Russians were murdered by those waving the red banner emblazoned with the hammer and sickle.

It's a symbol of oppression and murder just like the swastika. How ever you spin it, you should realise what it means to people.

[commanderkai]

Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:

There are several schools of Communism. It's not all just one big umbrella of one thought. I do not describe myself as a Stalinist nor do I subscribe to any Stalinist organizations or news. I express regret for the failures of the degenerative worker state that was the USSR after Lenin's death. I've explained my position on this multiple times. If you're curious, I'm what could be considered a 'Trotskyist' in so far as my view of the USSR. I feel entirely different approaches need to be taken in North America though.

...

Feel free to attack the politics. Actually, I haven't seen much of that.

The issue with attacking the politics is this. Communists almost always claim that that the USSR, Vietnam, Cuba, China etc etc weren't "actual" Communist countries, and as such attacking those countries' governments, actions and policies always lead to "Well, they weren't REAL Communist countries".

Like I said before. It's perfectly fine to wear the Hammer and Sickle, the issue is that the Hammer and Sickle doesn't JUST represent Communism, or the unity between Workers and Farmers, but also the oppression and murder of tens of millions. The same goes with the Swastika, it isn't just a symbol for a religious faith, but also a symbol of an oppressive totalitarian government that slaughtered millions. If you can accept that the symbol represents more than what you just believe, then more power to you and wear it as much as you want.

[ASLplease]

is it possible that people use it on internet forums without knowing what it stands for?

[commanderkai]

ASLplease ASLplease:

is it possible that people use it on internet forums without knowing what it stands for?

Look at the amount of people with Che shirts. If people knew Che was a murdering douchebag instead of his symbol status, would as many people wear it? *Shrugs*

[EyeBrock]

ASLplease ASLplease:

is it possible that people use it on internet forums without knowing what it stands for?

It is quite hard to fathom that using this symbol of evil goes unnoticed by the naive.

The hammer+sickle to me is as evil as the swastika.

[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

ASLplease ASLplease:

is it possible that people use it on internet forums without knowing what it stands for?

It is quite hard to fathom that using this symbol of evil goes unnoticed by the naive.

The hammer+sickle to me is as evil as the swastika.

So is the cross. Its been used throughout history to justify countless atrocities and serve as the symbol to get people to commit them.

[EyeBrock]

You have a point Derby, but it's been a long time since a crucifix stood for evil in the same way a swastika and the hammer+sickle did in the 20th century.

[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

You have a point Derby, but it's been a long time since a crucifix stood for evil in the same way a swastika and the hammer+sickle did in the 20th century.

Well the symbology behind Mr Cs argument is quite correct. Farm tool symbology has long been used to symbolize the worker and all that. Hitlers swastika was his own design and doesn't erase what the original stands for. I'm going to disagree with you about the cross not standing for evil. It still stands as a symbol for the repression of people even if they aren't being sent to the gulags. Homosexuality is one such example in our society.

You may feel very strongly against communism because of what Stalin did but quite frankly the more and more I research in to some of the things the US has done both overtly and covertly in nations around the world (particularly central America) I see that them and by extension capitalism have been responsible for atrocities just as bad. The only difference is the lack of available numbers to meet Stalins body count.

A lot of governments that have been linked to genocidal actions can be subsequently directly linked to the US. The Somoza dynasty in Nicaragua is just one of many. Plenty of stones to throw at western governments ignoring atrocities simply because it was their guy doing it.

[ASLplease]

DerbyX DerbyX:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

ASLplease ASLplease:

is it possible that people use it on internet forums without knowing what it stands for?

It is quite hard to fathom that using this symbol of evil goes unnoticed by the naive.

The hammer+sickle to me is as evil as the swastika.

So is the cross. Its been used throughout history to justify countless atrocities and serve as the symbol to get people to commit them.

and you call that a complete and thoruogh review on the history of the cross?

[EyeBrock]

Oh come on Derby.

Mr C's use of Soviet symbols isn't about the glorification of farmers. Now you are off on a tangent.

As others have said, both the swastika and the hammer/sickle have had other symbolic uses before they were hijacked by the Soviets and the Nazis.

If you display either symbol, people will think you are sympathetic to Nazism and the Soviet era in Europe.

Trying to find comparisons in the non-Soviet, non-Nazi world is just looking to excuse the inexcusable.

The Soviet regime was a murderous and oppressive regime that killed millions and enslaved half of Europe for decades.

The hammer and sickle isn't a jolly little symbol and little boys using it should consider it's real meaning or prepare to be challenged.