[DerbyX]

Brenda Brenda:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Brenda Brenda:

No offence, but Christians didnt resort to the Holocaust. It had nothing to do with religion, other than "getting rid of Jews". Can't blame Christianity for that one...

Yes we can. We can certainly blame it in the same way people here want to blame islam for just about everything they can think off.

You can say you can't blame christianity for WW2, as the root causes there were politically based but Hitlers irrational hatred and subsequent treatment the Jews received by innumerable people at his behest finds it root cause in christianity.

Denial of this is revisionist history at its worst especially since it inevitably does place the blame for that genocide on others like Atheism.

No, we can't.
Hitler wanted the Jews gone. He didnt want everybody to convert to another religion, he just wanted what he wanted. I don't think he ever shouted "GOD IS GREAT!!" when he turned on the gaschambers.

The difference here is, is that Islam says (or at least the radical islamist, who claim to do what they do in Allah's name) to kill all infidels. Hitler said "kill all Jews. Hitler didnt act out of religion. Radical Islam does.

Politics and religion do not go well together, and cannot be compared here. You cannot blame every other (a)religious group for the Holocaust, just because it was against the Jews.

Wrong. First off

$1:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

Hitler was using religion because it was through religion he learned his hatred. As I said, denial of such is simply revisionist history.

Second, while radical islam proponents spout endless sound bites about allah they are no more trying to convert anybody to it then you are. They use their religion as a recruiting tool much like we use patriotism.

The fact is that you can't turn around and try and distance christianinty from the evil its proponents do then blame the religion of others by using circular logic. It is neither logical not fair.

So far in every context whenever its a muslim doing it (Beslan, 9/11, Nigeria, Pakistan, etc) the constant statement is that the violence being committed is because of islam rather then (as the history always shows) many root causes usually centered around land/resource claims.

When its christians committing the violence then automatically another characteristic is choosen (like socialist, leftist, people of ethnicity).

The fact you think their religion commands them to do this simply shows ignorance because I hear them all the time saying that isn't true in exactly the same way you are trying to say christianity didn't order people to behave in that manner.

It goes both way and christianity is as much responsible for the atrocities committed by its adherents as islam is by theirs.

[Brenda]

First off, I dont think ANYTHING, so dont put words in my mouth. I am talking radical islam, who yell themselves they do it in name of Allah, not the normal muslims who live like you and me.

I am as against any form of religion you can think of, and will not blame the murder of Pim Fortuyn on the politic left or vegans, just because the guy who killed him, was a lefty and a vegan. I blame that on the guy because he is an asshole. But, when Theo van Gogh was stabbed to death, it was done "in name of Allah". Just like 911. So forgive me for blaming that on Islam.

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

And here come the Christian haters. Hey guys get a clue. The Jews were hated and persecuted LONG before the advent of Christianity.

Hitler WAS NOT a Christian by even the most basic of definitions. He was an occultist. I suppose yer next gonna tell me that Stalin was actually a Buddhist.
Hitler allowed the Church to remain as a functioning entity in Germany for two reasons rolled into one, it served his purpose. Most of Germany was some form of Christian, usually Lutheren or Catholic. Hitler knew better than to try and ban these institutions for fear the population would turn against him.
But of course, no one seems to remember, or they just "conveniently" forget that Hitler also had more than a few priests in Germany murdered as well.

Irrelvant. That they were persecuted before christianity doesn't erase the fact they were certainly persecuted by christians.

As for Hitler, his christianity has been established beyond a doubt. Born and raised a christian. Baptized a christian (and that alone is enough by many standards), believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ (the only truly defining belief a christian has to be a christian), was never excommunicated by the Catholic church (well that doesn't mean much), and never once denied his religious beliefs.

In fact his seminal work mein kampf, containing all his most personal thoughts shows nothing bu his belief in christianity.

Face it. He was christian. That he did despicable things is simply irrelevant especially when yet another christian cherished belief is that no matter what acts a human may do all he needs to do is accept Jesus Christ as their saviour and they will be forgiven. By that yardstick not a single one of you can say who is and who is not christian since its up to your god.

At best you can say Hitler did not act like what you think a christian should act like.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Wrong. First off

$1:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

That's some funny shit right there Derb. One line about God and that makes Hitler a Christian
Care to put the rest of that quote into context now?

[DerbyX]

Brenda Brenda:

First off, I dont think ANYTHING, so dont put words in my mouth. I am talking radical islam, who yell themselves they do it in name of Allah, not the normal muslims who live like you and me.

I am as against any form of religion you can think of, and will not blame the murder of Pim Fortuyn on the politic left or vegans, just because the guy who killed him, was a lefty and a vegan. I blame that on the guy because he is an asshole. But, when Theo van Gogh was stabbed to death, it was done "in name of Allah". Just like 911. So forgive me for blaming that on Islam.

A distinction that few who blame islam bother to make. You seem to want to ignore the fact that people like Hitler truly did blame the Jews for things like killing Jesus and they truly did think they were acting in their gods/religions name.

In any way you can blame islam for the atrocities committed by its adherents (or those that claim it) I can use that same argument and blame christianity.

Its not like there haven't been christians murder people in order to force them to convert like they did against indigenous Mayans in Guatemala no different then then when muslims do it in Somalia.

It goes both ways.

[Thanos]

**Sigh**

It's times like this that I really regret that high schools don't have a mandatory three-year long history program that strictly focusses on the history, the religious philosophy, and the spiritual motivations of the Third Reich. There's so many myths and errors and falsehoods being told here about the alleged atheism and neo-paganism of Nazi Germany, and of Christian anti-semitism in general, that I'm starting to lose track.

Not that anyone will bother, but a brief use of Wiki to explore the Nazi belief in Postive Christianity and the current American far-rightist/white supremacist sub-group of the Christian Identity movement would do everyone wonders. Beyond that I'm at a loss as to state anything else on this particular topic.

[Brenda]

Of course it goes both ways. But you can hardly say that in our day and age, Christianity is acting up...

[DerbyX]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Wrong. First off

$1:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

That's some funny shit right there Derb. One line about God and that makes Hitler a Christian
Care to put the rest of that quote into context now?

Nope. There are many many more. We have had marathon debates on this forum and I always seem to have all the evidence.

http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm

There are many more sites available and many sites that try and fight this fact. The problem is that they need to use circular logic like "christian do not act badly therefore anyone acting badly (badly meaning doing thinks like Hitler) is not a christian."

They also try and say he was really only using religion or attempt to blame occutism like you have.

By every measurable stick we have Hitler was a christian in his upbringing, beliefs, speeches, and his seminal and personal writings.

[DerbyX]

Brenda Brenda:

Of course it goes both ways. But you can hardly say that in our day and age, Christianity is acting up...

That depends. How many Americans view their military as doing the work of Jesus? What about the verified and documented accounts of preists and nuns participating in the genocide in Rwanda?

No. Christians are not behaving better then muslims as a group. Individuals might be or specific groups (like the Amish, Mennonites) might be but as a blanket faith desciption? Nope.

[DerbyX]

Well that was brief yet bloody and fun. Gotta go as I gots a dog to take to the dog park.

[Brenda]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Brenda Brenda:

Of course it goes both ways. But you can hardly say that in our day and age, Christianity is acting up...

That depends. How many Americans view their military as doing the work of Jesus?

Thats a strawman... Church and/or church leaders have nothing to do with what the individual thinks.
The difference (imho) is that when 911 happened, Muslim leaders where the first to yell "It was us, we are proud of what we did, die, you infidels!". I don't see the Pope yell that...

[PublicAnimalNo9]

DerbyX DerbyX:

As for Hitler, his christianity has been established beyond a doubt. Born and raised a christian. Baptized a christian (and that alone is enough by many standards), believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ (the only truly defining belief a christian has to be a christian), was never excommunicated by the Catholic church (well that doesn't mean much), and never once denied his religious beliefs.

In fact his seminal work mein kampf, containing all his most personal thoughts shows nothing bu his belief in christianity.

Face it. He was christian. That he did despicable things is simply irrelevant especially when yet another christian cherished belief is that no matter what acts a human may do all he needs to do is accept Jesus Christ as their saviour and they will be forgiven. By that yardstick not a single one of you can say who is and who is not christian since its up to your god.

At best you can say Hitler did not act like what you think a christian should act like.

Really? I've read Mein Kampf and I found VERY little in it about his personal religious beliefs. He certainly saw a need for the Church, but not for him, just for the people of Germany.
Oh but wait, he was baptized you say? Oh well then, some water on a kid's head when he's a little boy certianly makes him a devout Christian. Being dragged to church by mommy and daddy when yer a kid makes you no more a Christian than me going to an arena makes me a hockey player.
Hitler denied his "belief" by practicing and using the occult on a regular basis.
Sorry bro, but those two do NOT go hand in hand. And of course, good Christians always have priests and ministers murdered now don't they

[BartSimpson]

Derby has an irrational and unfounded hatred of Christians and has frequently alleged that he is being personally persecuted by numerous Christians. I've asked him several times for names and locations so I can go deal with these people for him and I am still waiting for those names.

Probably because figments of the imagination lack real names and real addresses.

So now I've just come to the logical conclusion that Derby hates Christians just because he hates Christians and there is no point in trying to have a rational discussion with him on the topic anymore than there is a point in trying to reason with a Nazi who hates Jews or with a muslim who hates non-muslims.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Derby has an irrational and unfounded hatred of Christians and has frequently alleged that he is being personally persecuted by numerous Christians. I've asked him several times for names and locations so I can go deal with these people for him and I am still waiting for those names.

Probably because figments of the imagination lack real names and real addresses.

So now I've just come to the logical conclusion that Derby hates Christians just because he hates Christians and there is no point in trying to have a rational discussion with him on the topic anymore than there is a point in trying to reason with a Nazi who hates Jews or with a muslim who hates non-muslims.

Nope. Aside from your irrational hatred of muslism I don't preach hate towards christians in the manner you do about muslims. I don't think we should send soldiers into every church like you think we should every mosque and mandrasa.

Even your method of dealing with chistians trying to convert me is violent ie you will come up and kill them. Not talk to them or explain what they are doing is wrong but to kill them.

Speaks volumes about the violence in your heart and the reasons you think the way you do about muslims. Not me. I hate the faith not the people who hold it. You hate both the faith and the people who hold it and further then that think anybody who holds that faith and doesn't actually behave the way you paint them to be must therefore not be of that faith.

[Yogi]

How about this for a view-point. Rather simplistic, but...

Guy from Pakistan is living the 'American Dream'. Good job. Nice home. Beautiful wife. 2.2 kids. Recession hits. Financially he loses everything. Becomes 'angry at the world, "I'll get even with those bastards who caused all my problems"....