[Lemmy]

The whole healthcare reform question in the USA is a classic example of the Free-rider Problem. People have an incentive to claim they don't want this service even when they do. If they lie about their desire for healthcare while believing that they will still receive the benefits of such a program, they hope to free-ride on others' contributions.

It's 2am and you and your five buddies have been up all night partying and everyone's got the munchies. One guy says "Let's get a pizza". Five guys say "Yeah, I'm in, let's order" and one guy says "Nah, I'm not really hungry". But what happens when the pizza arrives? That sixth guy is in there grabbing and gobbling slices just like the five guys that said they wanted the pizza.

It's easy to say you're against something when you really want it but don't really want to pay for it.

[poquas]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

Stop your lying your finally happy we are going to have deathcare like you guys!!

What makes you think Canada really gives a damn about what you have? We collectively look south and try to understand why America is the only western country without a form of universal health care and you act like it’s a good thing? The wealthiest country on the planet is more concerned about making more wealth by letting the insurance lobby screw everybody they can and we have you here on a CANADIAN site bragging about it.

Give your head a shake.

[Public_Domain]

[ManifestDestiny]

poquas poquas:

What makes you think Canada really gives a damn about what you have?

This whole thread is a prime example, you are a prime example!

$1:

We collectively look south and try to understand why America is the only western country without a form of universal health care and you act like it’s a good thing?

Cause we are the only country with a Constitution that means something

$1:

The wealthiest country on the planet is more concerned about making more wealth by letting the insurance lobby screw everybody

Really? do you ever do research or just repeat everything you hear?
The trial lawyers lobby donated 126 million dollars in 2008 giving 80% to Democrats! as opposed to Insurance companies giving 30 million evenly to both Dems and Repubs. Already in 2010 Trial lawyers have donated 27 million in two and a half months!!!!
Medical tort reform drives down insurance premiums by reducing the amount of tests insurance companies cover each year. This would reduce healthcare costs by as much as $200 billion a year. So why are no Democrats talking about eliminating defensive medicine as an easy way to save billions of taxpayer dollars? Trial lawyers, the only opponents to medical tort reform, happen to be in bed with Democrats, consistently raising millions for the Democratic Party. Democrats have sold out the American public for trial lawyers’ “donations.”

[ManifestDestiny]

Here is the list and link http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/m ... cycle=2008
Rank Industry Total Dem GOP Top Recipient
1 Lawyers/Law Firms $126,645,878 78% 22% Barack Obama (D)
2 Retired $125,480,335 56% 44% Barack Obama (D)
3 Securities/Invest $64,564,552 64% 36% Barack Obama (D)
4 Real Estate $62,023,737 57% 43% Barack Obama (D)
5 Health Professionals $58,176,536 60% 40% Barack Obama (D)
6 Education $37,210,213 88% 12% Barack Obama (D)
7 Misc Business $32,933,378 70% 30% Barack Obama (D)
8 Business Services $32,377,684 72% 28% Barack Obama (D)
9 Insurance $30,434,137 51% 49% John McCain (R)
10 Misc Finance $28,683,349 54% 46% Barack Obama (D)
11 TV/Movies/Music $26,116,067 78% 22% Barack Obama (D)
12 Lobbyists $24,948,047 57% 43% Hillary Clinton (D-NY)
13 Democratic/Liberal $24,087,576 99% 1% Barack Obama (D)
14 Leadership PACs $23,703,995 44% 56% Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga)
15 Computers/Internet $23,632,378 71% 29% Barack Obama (D)
16 Commercial Banks $22,849,859 53% 47% Barack Obama (D)
17 Repub/Conservative $19,497,271 2% 98% John McCain (R)
18 Pharm/Health Prod $19,395,291 55% 45% Barack Obama (D)
19 Oil & Gas $17,540,886 27% 73% John McCain (R)
20 Civil Servants $17,160,917 78% 22% Barack Obama (D)
21 Misc Mfg/Distrib $16,590,252 51% 49% Barack Obama (D)
22 Hospitals/Nurs Homes $15,745,384 66% 34% Barack Obama (D)
23 Electric Utilities $15,429,114 51% 49% Barack Obama (D)
24 Women's Issues $14,323,313 97% 3% Barack Obama (D)
25 General Contractors $14,252,176 41% 59% John McCain (R)
26 Construction Svcs $13,263,673 62% 38% Barack Obama (D)
27 Public Sector Unions $12,836,254 87% 13% Barack Obama (D)
28 Retail Sales $12,579,620 55% 45% Barack Obama (D)
29 Accountants $12,434,653 55% 45% Barack Obama (D)
30 Publishing $12,225,687 80% 20% Barack Obama (D)
31 Bldg Trade Unions $12,122,055 88% 12% Donald J Cazayoux (D-La)
32 Crop Production $11,758,406 50% 50% John McCain (R)
33 Pro-Israel $11,715,443 62% 38% Barack Obama (D)
34 Transport Unions $11,426,568 84% 16% Laura Richardson (D-Calif)
35 Air Transport $11,095,226 50% 50% Barack Obama (D)
36 Automotive $10,465,108 35% 65% John McCain (R)
37 Beer, Wine & Liquor $9,451,332 54% 46% John McCain (R)
38 Food & Beverage $8,622,934 47% 53% Barack Obama (D)
39 Health Services $8,421,163 66% 34% Barack Obama (D)
40 Industrial Unions $8,414,364 97% 3% Donald J Cazayoux (D-La)
41 Candidate Cmtes $7,680,385 64% 36% Travis W Childers (D-Miss)
42 Telephone Utilities $7,561,234 51% 49% Barack Obama (D)
43 Agricultural Svcs $7,339,722 44% 56% John McCain (R)
44 Food Process/Sales $7,044,343 40% 60% John McCain (R)
45 Other $7,029,542 79% 21% Barack Obama (D)
46 Non-Profits $7,014,074 84% 16% Barack Obama (D)
47 Defense Aerospace $6,966,013 53% 47% Barack Obama (D)
48 Casinos/Gambling $6,869,497 67% 33% Harry Reid (D-Nev)
49 Building Materials $6,631,265 30% 70% John McCain (R)
50 Defense Electronics $6,297,345 57% 43% John P Murtha (D-Pa)

[bootlegga]

Thanos Thanos:

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

I have to ask you a serious question. Are you gainfully employed and do you pay taxes?

I run my own business.
I'm up in McMurray almost all the time as part of the filthy oil patch.
I made an average of $75K per year for the last five years.
I pay my fair share of taxes, both corporate and personal.

I also don't piss and moan like a fucking four-year old (or an American) about tin-hatted communist tyrannies or mythical welfare leeches.

You're part of what's called a "Society", whether you like it or not. Look it up in the goddamn encyclopedia to find out what it means. What it doesn't mean is that the richest or the most vicious get to win all the time.

Grow the hell up already. Or, more appropriately in your case, go join some compound like the Branch Davidians or the militia nuts and live the rest of your life in shivering, paranoid terror about the government coming to take away all of your stuff. You people and your "rugged individualist" crap died out about the same time as the Old West did.

Great post, I'd rep if I could!

[bootlegga]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

My country was built on the strength of Indiviuals that choose to help other indiviuals out of what is right, not cause the goverment says its right.

They why does US healthcare seem to be about Big Companies deciding which individuals need help based on what is profitable?

Honestly, I have no idea why you guys are opposed to your fellow citizens being healthy. Do you think the strong individuals who became Doctors and Nurses will suddenly stop caring about people because the government becomes another healthcare insurer?

No doubt, it almost seems as if some Americans (generally the wealthy and the right) actually want their fellow human beings to suffer. It begs comprehension, especially given that many of them are 'Christians'. I guess most of them never read the bits about love thy fellow man and Christian charity...

[bootlegga]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Ultimately it's a film about the power of the people to bring down an evilarchy.

Americans should all wear those masks when they go to the polls in November. That would be cool.

In fact, if I can wear one, go ahead, book me on Stewart.

The "evilarchy" got voted out in 2008.

[Lemmy]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Thanos Thanos:

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

I have to ask you a serious question. Are you gainfully employed and do you pay taxes?

I run my own business.
I'm up in McMurray almost all the time as part of the filthy oil patch.
I made an average of $75K per year for the last five years.
I pay my fair share of taxes, both corporate and personal.

I also don't piss and moan like a fucking four-year old (or an American) about tin-hatted communist tyrannies or mythical welfare leeches.

You're part of what's called a "Society", whether you like it or not. Look it up in the goddamn encyclopedia to find out what it means. What it doesn't mean is that the richest or the most vicious get to win all the time.

Grow the hell up already. Or, more appropriately in your case, go join some compound like the Branch Davidians or the militia nuts and live the rest of your life in shivering, paranoid terror about the government coming to take away all of your stuff. You people and your "rugged individualist" crap died out about the same time as the Old West did.

Great post, I'd rep if I could!

I could, and did.

[poquas]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

Really? do you ever do research or just repeat everything you hear?

I have a rather unique position in this whole argument. I’ve worked as a medical professional on both sides of the border. I know better than most how the systems work, and while working on the American side of the border I may have been paid exceptionally well, the public still suffered from a serious lack of care.

Your repeated snivelling about lack of choice, socialism, communism, etc. only demonstrates the complete lack of understanding of the entire situation and the complete “me first” mentality that has crippled the States over the past generation.

Again, give your head a shake.

[ManifestDestiny]

poquas poquas:

I have a rather unique position in this whole argument. I’ve worked as a medical professional on both sides of the border. I know better than most how the systems work, and while working on the American side of the border I may have been paid exceptionally well, the public still suffered from a serious lack of care.

Your repeated snivelling about lack of choice, socialism, communism, etc. only demonstrates the complete lack of understanding of the entire situation and the complete “me first” mentality that has crippled the States over the past generation.

Again, give your head a shake.

Again shaking my head that you have totally disregarded the facts.

I guess its ok the trial lawyers get rich in your book.

[ManifestDestiny]

poquas poquas:

the public still suffered from a serious lack of care.

Could you elaborate? And what state was this in?

[ManifestDestiny]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Thanos Thanos:

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

I have to ask you a serious question. Are you gainfully employed and do you pay taxes?

I run my own business.
I'm up in McMurray almost all the time as part of the filthy oil patch.
I made an average of $75K per year for the last five years.
I pay my fair share of taxes, both corporate and personal.

I also don't piss and moan like a fucking four-year old (or an American) about tin-hatted communist tyrannies or mythical welfare leeches.

You're part of what's called a "Society", whether you like it or not. Look it up in the goddamn encyclopedia to find out what it means. What it doesn't mean is that the richest or the most vicious get to win all the time.

Grow the hell up already. Or, more appropriately in your case, go join some compound like the Branch Davidians or the militia nuts and live the rest of your life in shivering, paranoid terror about the government coming to take away all of your stuff. You people and your "rugged individualist" crap died out about the same time as the Old West did.

Great post, I'd rep if I could!

Why cause he does not make enough for owning his own business

[andyt]

ManifestDestiny ManifestDestiny:

says you. One thing that I have noticed here is uc Americans could care less that that you have no choice for healthcare. But you all get your panties in a knot cause we have a choice.

I care about US healthcare because of the effect it has on Canada. It attracts our own nutbars like Stephen Harper and other reformacon who want to emulate you. It creates a powerful insurance industry that would like nothing better than to see that hugely expensive yet completely unfair system up here as well. US companies have filed NAFTA complaints that our system is an unfair advantage for Canadian companies. etc.

Now, why are you on a Canadian forum trying to convince us that your pov is the correct one? Shouldn't you be proselytizing your own people instead? You're never going to convince us that a system that costs 1/3 more, causes 50% of bankruptcies in your country and leaves 1/6 of your population without care is the way to go. But even if you did, what difference would it make? We don't get a vote. You should expend all that sweat and foam around your mouth on people who can actually make a difference, would be my suggestion.

[N_Fiddledog]

bootlegga bootlegga:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Ultimately it's a film about the power of the people to bring down an evilarchy.

Americans should all wear those masks when they go to the polls in November. That would be cool.

In fact, if I can wear one, go ahead, book me on Stewart.

The "evilarchy" got voted out in 2008.

Hey, no fair. Using my own term against me. Good one. I should give you rep for that, but I'm too petty.

Actually "an" evilarchy got voted out in 2008, and was replaced by the new, improved model.

OK, so why should Canadians care, and do the critics of the could-care-less-about-real-healthcare "reform" in American really not want Americans to have healthcare?

I'll talking point it. It's all that's needed. You all know the arguments. Might as well post them though, so it doesn't look like there is no reasoned debate.

Here's the counter-points most often given.

Personal liberty matters. Not just to America, which might be the last bastion, but to all as a light in the dark.

Big government controls weakens the American economy at a time the world (and Canada in particular) least needs a weak America.

It isn't just about healthcare. It's the socialist control of banks, auto industry, energy, et al. It's the general movement that's bad policy. The transformation of America from home of the free to home of the managed is spooky.

Nobody doesn't want healthcare for poor Americans. Even Nixon had a plan for it. The argument has never been about whether they need it. It's always been about how to do it. Republicans did have multiple plans on ways to move towards the goal through market reforms, without destroying the economy, or big government control encroaching on personal liberty. Google Paul Ryan for one.