[bootlegga]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Robair Robair:

bootlegga bootlegga:

.
-----+----+


Yeah, no surprise really. I mean if a cop in Nelson can get away with shooting a drunk kid while he was handcuffed (in the back of the head no less), it's no surprise that these jackasses got off.

No doubt.

Welcome to Canada, watch the tazers on arrival. Oh, and don't get caught with an open beer in the parking lot of any hockey arena, they shoot you for that over here.

It's even better when you have to deal with semi-informed citizens pushing a bias around. You're wrong on both those counts; wanna debate it? You bring all your little facts, I'll bring mine and I'll leave you as one crying bitch. Sound like fun?

What's the point? You're not going to change my mind, and I won't change yours.

I can't believe it, but I agree with RR (now that hell's frozen over, the Leafs can win the Cup this year )

[uwish]

HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:

uwish uwish:

Derby the only difference in my selection of an article as you like to point out is the person offering the opinion isn't just an armchair quarterback.

And as I have indicated, his opinion on the incident is not alone among his peers. If you are looking for someone to comment on the use of force etc which, evidentially my comments inflamed Dayseed who freely admitted he will always defend the police, then I am getting the information right from the sources of those who are qualified.

And I agree with your comments to a point, you don't act like that in a foreign airport, and yes his behaviour was the reason this happened. But that doesn't absolve the conduct of the police.

I underlined this for a reason. People are taking shots at the RCMP because the guy died. What people seem to forget that the man was vioelent, aggresive and beligerant. Police are there to protect the public from harm, and to do so with as little risk to others and themselves as possible, so again i dont see the problem. It seems that that some people want law enforcement to show up with flowers and chocolates everytime they face someone who is violent.

the conduct of the RCMP in this case is perfectly fine and they did their jobs. They protected the public, and themselves. The man died because of a chain events that began when he started throwing items and threatening people. I don't care what country you're from or going to. Acting violently in any airport is a sure ticket to get yourself in a huge mess of pain.

I agree with your comments, completely. The police due have a job to do my only point was not to bash the RCMP as a force, only that they did not follow their own use of force matrix correctly. That's it. The fact that the guy died is just a tragic outcome of that fact.

[Dayseed]

uwish uwish:

you sound like Derby when pushed into a corner. I find inferior intellect usually results in personal attacks, name calling and general mental breakdowns.

You can share a tissue with Derby.

Wheee! Uwish, you must have the tiniest of intellects then! In a post dedicated to pursuing your misguided belief that dumb people resort to personal attacks, you make your whole post A PERSONAL ATTACK AGAINST ME!

Wow. You are just one big colossal screw-up, aren't you?

Here's even more support for my YEAR OLD position vis a vis your brand new stupidity.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2008/12/12/7726796.html

Here's a sampling from last Friday's article:

$1:

There is a substantial body of independent evidence which supports that the officers in question were lawfully engaged in their duties when they encountered Mr. Dziekanski and the force they used to subdue and restrain him was reasonable and necessary in all the circumstances,” Lowe told reporters

Oh, and you're terribly misinformed, or just a liar. Here's a sampling from Macleans.

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/wire/article.jsp?content=n121589A

$1:

At a news conference shortly after, RCMP officials again defended their use of Tasers and noted several policy changes in the past year, including:
-Restricting Taser use to incidents involving threats to officer or public safety.
-Annual re-certification for officers carrying Tasers.
-Testing of the Mounties' Taser arsenal.
-More detailed use-of-force reporting.
But when asked whether any of those changes would have changed what happened to Dziekanski had they been in place 14 months ago, an RCMP use-of-force expert replied simply, "No."
Dziekanski was shocked with the Taser five times in the brief encounter with police. Neve said there must be a better understanding of the effects of multiple shocks and in what circumstances the so-called conducted energy weapons should be used.

So, what difference does this make? Let's examine some of uwish's earlier shit-headedness and expose him as an ignorant moron!

uwish you were smarter than me because this is going to sting! uwish you were smarter than me because this is going to sting!:

perhaps you haven't seen nor read the latest RCMP guidelines for use of impact device, that nice diagram of yours is a bit out of date.

Uh-ohes! The RCMP NEVER CHANGED THE USE OF INTERMEDIATE DEVICES AND THOSE CHANGES MENTIONED ABOVE WOULDN'T HAVE ALTERED THE OUTCOME! Holy fuck Batman!

Let's read your quote one more time, because ripping you a new one is just so easy and satisfying:

uwish you were smarter than me because this is going to sting! uwish you were smarter than me because this is going to sting!:

perhaps you haven't seen nor read the latest RCMP guidelines for use of impact device, that nice diagram of yours is a bit out of date.

Yee-fucking-haw!

God, I love being so damn right.

Bootlegga,

I don't have to change your mind. My point of view was borne out by those who had access to all the evidence and are knowledgeable of the law. Your state of mind is simply incorrect. The people who made the decision passed the bar exam, you just made your decision AT a bar!

[bootlegga]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Bootlegga,

I don't have to change your mind. My point of view was borne out by those who had access to all the evidence and are knowledgeable of the law. Your state of mind is simply incorrect. The people who made the decision passed the bar exam, you just made your decision AT a bar!

Sorry, but you don't know shit about me. I could have taken law courses and you would never know, unless I told you so. Hardly a post worthy of a "Master Debator"...

If you just want to toss insults around, I'm not interested in that game either...

And I don't go to bars, they're a waste of time and money.

[Zipperfish]

$1:

the conduct of the RCMP in this case is perfectly fine and they did their jobs.

The conduct of the police in this case was NOT perfectly fine. Following teh incident they misprepresented facts, stating that "Dziekański "continued to throw things around and yell and scream" following the officers' arrival. This was not true. Then there was the trip to Poland to dig up dirt on Dziekański, the seizure of a civilian video.

What about the myriad other security forces at YVR? They were sitting around twiddling their thumbs the whole time an increasingly aggravated and confused Dziekański is wandering out, completely lost. One fucking moment of human contact was probably all that was required to precipitate a happy ending and avoid this death, that's the tragedy here.

I'm not about to lay any blame at teh feet of the cops there, but if anyone thinks that the death of Dziekański was an appriate end to that scenario, he needs his head examined.

[Thanos]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

$1:

the conduct of the RCMP in this case is perfectly fine and they did their jobs.

The conduct of the police in this case was NOT perfectly fine. Following teh incident they misprepresented facts, stating that "Dziekański "continued to throw things around and yell and scream" following the officers' arrival. This was not true. Then there was the trip to Poland to dig up dirt on Dziekański, the seizure of a civilian video.

What about the myriad other security forces at YVR? They were sitting around twiddling their thumbs the whole time an increasingly aggravated and confused Dziekański is wandering out, completely lost. One fucking moment of human contact was probably all that was required to precipitate a happy ending and avoid this death, that's the tragedy here.

I'm not about to lay any blame at teh feet of the cops there, but if anyone thinks that the death of Dziekański was an appriate end to that scenario, he needs his head examined.

Ever see a big angry bouncer in a bar take all the piss out of some belligerent drunken wanker by slapping a full nelson on them and then toss them up against a wall or face-first onto the ground? Well, that's what the police used to be able to do to physically subdue troublemakers and you never heard too much about people dying because of it. The trouble is that they're no longer allowed to do it. If the civil liberties lawyers and the shit disturbers in the cop-hating media hadn't made it impossible for the police to use choke-holds and batons to subdue people then most of these folks who've died from taser use would still be alive today. Lay the blame squarely where it belongs and that's on those who have gone out of their way to make the job of the police far more difficult, and in many cases virtually impossible, for the officers to successfully perform.

[Dayseed]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Sorry, but you don't know shit about me. I could have taken law courses and you would never know, unless I told you so. Hardly a post worthy of a "Master Debator"...

So what if I don't know shit about you? You assume you're worth the effort. There's nothing in any of your posts to suggest you took law courses. I have yet to see anything which purports knowlege and you certainly don't bother yourself with specifics regarding the law. It appears that my surmisings are correct...much akin to my position on the Dziekanski tasering.

Also, I notice your cowardice in not addressing that the position of those persons possessed of both evidence and knowledge came to the same conclusion I did, which is a complete antithesis of your position. Does it make you wrong? Yes, it sure does. Otherwise, the Crown, under tremendous public pressure to adopt your reasoning, adopted mine despite said pressure.

$1:

If you just want to toss insults around, I'm not interested in that game either...

Well, here's where you blow your assumed moral highground. You say you're not interested in insults and insinuate that's all I'm doing. A resounding failure on both points for you. Firstly, I've posted links, articles and drawn relevant conclusions from each; I've crafted arguments founded on logic which have silenced critics of the RCMP's actions. Secondly, you yourself can't abstain from insults in the very same post you deride them. Saying it's hardly worth the "Master Debator" award is an insult. So, you're a hypocrite.

And your choice of music sucks fucking donkey dick.

$1:

And I don't go to bars, they're a waste of time and money.

See? Now I know shit about you despite not wanting to. You're anti-social. Congratulations??

[Brenda]

Dayseed Dayseed:

And your choice of music sucks fucking donkey dick.

Ya could request music, ya know

[Dayseed]

Brenda Brenda:

Dayseed Dayseed:

And your choice of music sucks fucking donkey dick.

Ya could request music, ya know

I'm just bombing out an insult because he taunted me not to. It's an adopted character quirk; tacked on ad hoc just like how Marty suddenly became enraged when called a chicken in Back to the Future II and III, but more explicit.

[ridenrain]

bootlegga bootlegga:

I can't believe it, but I agree with RR (now that hell's frozen over, the Leafs can win the Cup this year )

See why I don't bother to even bother with these "master debaters?
Their both a waste of time and effort.

[uwish]

ridenrain ridenrain:

bootlegga bootlegga:

I can't believe it, but I agree with RR (now that hell's frozen over, the Leafs can win the Cup this year )

See why I don't bother to even bother with these "master debaters?
Their both a waste of time and effort.

we have a winner

[uwish]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

$1:

the conduct of the RCMP in this case is perfectly fine and they did their jobs.

The conduct of the police in this case was NOT perfectly fine. Following teh incident they misprepresented facts, stating that "Dziekański "continued to throw things around and yell and scream" following the officers' arrival. This was not true. Then there was the trip to Poland to dig up dirt on Dziekański, the seizure of a civilian video.

What about the myriad other security forces at YVR? They were sitting around twiddling their thumbs the whole time an increasingly aggravated and confused Dziekański is wandering out, completely lost. One fucking moment of human contact was probably all that was required to precipitate a happy ending and avoid this death, that's the tragedy here.

I'm not about to lay any blame at teh feet of the cops there, but if anyone thinks that the death of Dziekański was an appriate end to that scenario, he needs his head examined.

don't let that get in the way of Dayseed delusion outbursts.

[jason700]

Is Mustang1 and Dayseed the same person?

[HyperionTheEvil]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

$1:

the conduct of the RCMP in this case is perfectly fine and they did their jobs.

The conduct of the police in this case was NOT perfectly fine. Following teh incident they misprepresented facts, stating that "Dziekański "continued to throw things around and yell and scream" following the officers' arrival. This was not true. Then there was the trip to Poland to dig up dirt on Dziekański, the seizure of a civilian video.

What about the myriad other security forces at YVR? They were sitting around twiddling their thumbs the whole time an increasingly aggravated and confused Dziekański is wandering out, completely lost. One fucking moment of human contact was probably all that was required to precipitate a happy ending and avoid this death, that's the tragedy here.

I'm not about to lay any blame at teh feet of the cops there, but if anyone thinks that the death of Dziekański was an appriate end to that scenario, he needs his head examined.

They grabbed the tape because it was evidence was it not? And if they went to poland to find out more about him it was to further the inquiry. You're treading into tinfoil hat ground here.

And what about the other security forces there, if they were private security thenthey properly called the RCMP. The RCMP is charged with safety at intenational airports especially today with airlind terrorim being in peoples minds, if they sat back and let preffesionals do thier job they did the right thing.

You're also assuming that Dziekański's death was inevtable. It was tragic certainly but the foremost concern with security is the safety of the Airport , innocent bystanders and the RCMP. The man was unstable, unpredictable and violent. I dont care who you are if you start throwing items and threatening people while in airport you become a security risk. Whatever the man's medical issues were are irrelevant to the situation at hand. The RCMP is not charged with putting themselves at risk for no reason. The man was an unknown and the only information they had was that he had destroyed property threatened people and was still doing so.

they did their jobs and did it properly.

[DerbyX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPe_hf7aBXM

2:49 of the video he throws a chair after apparently trying to have been calmed down by a woman. The comment heard by the videographer is "ohh, right in front of the cops too", cops responding to reports of a violent man throwing things who just happens to be throwing something right in front of them.

Prior to that he was quite obviously brandishing a chair as a weapon and appeared to be threatening staff with it or empling that anybody approaching him would be hit. This is what they would be reporting to the police on the phone.

The woman intervened at her own rish and that might have ended differently too with her being hurt or worse.

He then throws another chair (2:56) which looks like it was at the person in front of the video camera but likely just at the bar in front of them. Yet another violent act in front of the cops or in this case security men dressed in yellow.

He then picks up yet another chair (3:04) and we shortly hear "sir, sir". He puts that down and appears to calm down but at (3:52) picks up another chair.

You can see him still pushing/handling the chair around (4:39) and can shortly be heard screaming. At (3:52) he appears to have the chair in front of him and/or holding it in front of him.

(4:58) the 4 RCMP officers show up. (5:21) he throws his hands up abpruptly and moves away from the police quickly. Thats not calming down. (5:28) After moving away from him he gives no indication he is calming down and is instead being combative. Lets remember that the RCMP were fielding reports of a man going nuts and throwing things up until they arrived on the scene.

It was incumbent upon a foreigner in a foreign airport to not behave in this manner in the first place and when 4 uniformed police show up to either make every effort to not give them any reason to suspect you are escalating the violence.

Mr Diezinskis actions are the reason he is dead not the police.

My one experience with El-Al is being shunted to their service during an air Canada strike. Not only did we have to show up 4 hours early but we went through a rigourous screening procedure that taxed everyones nerves. They went through all my backpack including personal photos askign questions about the photos. Where I went, who I saw, etc. Then they changed my answers and repeated them back to me to catch me in a lie, things such as "did you enjoy your trip to Wales" when I had told them the photos were from Scotland.

At all times I saw at least 4 armed men with sub-machine guns as well as the guys interviewing me were armed.

If I had freaked out and got violent I might very well have been shot.

His death is a tragedy of course and he didn't deserve to die but his actions certainly were the ultimate cause of his demise.