[Thanos]

I really don't care anymore. After what was done to Energy East by Quebec and Ottawa, Canada will merely reap the whirlwind of the petty and parochial regional grudges it's been feeding since Confederation. As Will Munny accurately said, we've all got it coming to us. I could feign concern about job losses in Montreal if Bombardier's assembly moves to Alabama. Then again, Montreal never gave a damn about the job losses they caused from Alberta to New Brunswick when Denis "Shitmouth" Coderre wrecked Energy East. So, all in all, fuck 'em.

[shockedcanadian]

Thanos Thanos:

I really don't care anymore. After what was done to Energy East by Quebec and Ottawa, Canada will merely reap the whirlwind of the petty and parochial regional grudges it's been feeding since Confederation. As Will Munny accurately said, we've all got it coming to us. I could feign concern about job losses in Montreal if Bombardier's assembly moves to Alabama. Then again, Montreal never gave a damn about the job losses they caused from Alberta to New Brunswick when Denis "Shitmouth" Coderre wrecked Energy East. So, all in all, fuck 'em.

You're too anti-Canadian. Stand tall and proud.

[rickc]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

martin14 martin14:

rickc rickc:

So let me see if I am reading the article correctly.

Yeah, you pretty much got it right.

Bombardier, really has no shame at all.

No, rick is assuming that the money the government gave to Bombardier was a gift. It wasn't, it was for a partnership stake in the C-Series profit. Now that Airbus is also a partner, the profits will be greater to the stakeholders, and the billions in investment will mean greater returns than the original capital.

As for Boeing, as they say in the old country, "Rrrrrrrright up yer kilt!"

The headline of the article in the link that you posted states that the Quebec government gave Bombardier 1 billion dollars U.S. The second paragraph states that Bombardier CEO Alain Bellemare said that the investment from the Quebec government should reassure investors and customers that the company is not going anywhere, ( those are the CEO's words, not mine). But they ARE going somewhere else, aren't they? Clearly the government of Quebec thought that the money was going to keep JOBS in Canada. Suppose Bombardier would have publicly stated that they wanted to sell the government of Quebec a stake in the company and then they planned to move manufacturing of the CSeries out of the country. Would that deal have went through? Not in a million years. Try telling the workers who were counting on good paying manufacturing jobs building the CSeries how good they have it now that Quebec owns a stake in the company. See how well that goes over. Your article states that that the government of Quebec got a 49.5% in a new limited partenership that will take control of the assets, liabilities and obligations of the CSeries. Read that part again. Liabilities and obligations. Thats the part that should stand out. Thats what Quebec is getting. Liabilities and obligations. Airbus's deal assumed NO liabilities or obligations. They are only there for the good stuff. They leave the debt for the suckers. The new deal that was announced states that Airbus has a 50.01% ownership, Bombardier 31% and the government of Quebec a 19% stake. What happened to the 49.5% stake that Quebec bought for 1billion U.S.? Quebec thought that they were going to be equal partners and keep manufacturing jobs in Quebec. Now they are less than a junior partner. Now they get a newsletter every month keeping them informed. Airbus does not need to even consult with them in their business dealings as they ARE the majority owner. Quebec is losing manufacturing jobs. Their stake went from 49.5% to 13%. overnight, but they stay on the hook for the debt that Airbus did not assume.

You can try to spin this all you want to. Its like gold plating a turd, its still a turd. Quebec got suckered, plain and simple. Its like when the Sopranos took on a business partner (the restaurant owner). The mob milked him dry and then burnt him down. No good deed goes unpunished. Quebec is about to learn that the hard way. That 1 billion is long gone. Airbus aint paying it back. Bombardier will use some creative math and shell games to claim they are not making any profits. They will blame it on someone else as always. Hell they will probably get another bailout down the road and move even more manufacturing facilities offshore. Its a proven business model for them. If it aint broke, why fix it?

I dont blame you for you anger towards Boeing. They are ruthless cut throating bastards. At least they actually keep the jobs in America after they shake someone down. Its like the mob selling protection. You have to actually deliver on the protection when another mob starts encroaching on the territory. . Bombardier does NOT deliver. They do not keep their promises after a shakedown. People without jobs do not want to hear about how their government is receiving dividends from a company that moved their jobs offshore.

[BeaverFever]

Nicely said rick. I’ll admit that I haven’t followed this on too closely but that’s been my take on it as well. The only thing I can say in Bombardiers defence is that this type of story seems to be true for all the global aerospace giants, including Boeing, they all take government cash handouts six ways from Sunday, dressed ip so as not to look like subsidies, while routinely underdelivering and overcharging to an absurd amount on government contacts

[DrCaleb]

rickc rickc:

The headline of the article in the link that you posted states that the Quebec government gave Bombardier 1 billion dollars U.S. The second paragraph states that Bombardier CEO Alain Bellemare said that the investment from the Quebec government should reassure investors and customers that the company is not going anywhere, ( those are the CEO's words, not mine).

News articles are notorious for lack of detail.

rickc rickc:

But they ARE going somewhere else, aren't they? Clearly the government of Quebec thought that the money was going to keep JOBS in Canada. Suppose Bombardier would have publicly stated that they wanted to sell the government of Quebec a stake in the company and then they planned to move manufacturing of the CSeries out of the country. Would that deal have went through? Not in a million years. Try telling the workers who were counting on good paying manufacturing jobs building the CSeries how good they have it now that Quebec owns a stake in the company. See how well that goes over.

Most of the C-Series was already being built by contractors in the US and elsewhere in Canada. It was to be assembled in Quebec from all those bits. What is lost if it's assembled in the US instead? It isn't yet being assembled in Canada, so employment hasn't really ramped up yet.

rickc rickc:

Your article states that that the government of Quebec got a 49.5% in a new limited partenership that will take control of the assets, liabilities and obligations of the CSeries. Read that part again. Liabilities and obligations. Thats the part that should stand out. Thats what Quebec is getting. Liabilities and obligations. Airbus's deal assumed NO liabilities or obligations. They are only there for the good stuff. They leave the debt for the suckers. The new deal that was announced states that Airbus has a 50.01% ownership, Bombardier 31% and the government of Quebec a 19% stake. What happened to the 49.5% stake that Quebec bought for 1billion U.S.? Quebec thought that they were going to be equal partners and keep manufacturing jobs in Quebec. Now they are less than a junior partner. Now they get a newsletter every month keeping them informed. Airbus does not need to even consult with them in their business dealings as they ARE the majority owner. Quebec is losing manufacturing jobs. Their stake went from 49.5% to 13%. overnight, but they stay on the hook for the debt that Airbus did not assume.

Like Thanos, I don't really care. I only care about facts, and Boeing wasn't using any in their trade dispute, and all the money taxpayers have dumped into Bombardier over the years. How Bombardier/Quebec/Airbus structure their partnership is not my concern.

rickc rickc:

You can try to spin this all you want to. Its like gold plating a turd, its still a turd. Quebec got suckered, plain and simple. Its like when the Sopranos took on a business partner (the restaurant owner). The mob milked him dry and then burnt him down. No good deed goes unpunished. Quebec is about to learn that the hard way. That 1 billion is long gone. Airbus aint paying it back. Bombardier will use some creative math and shell games to claim they are not making any profits. They will blame it on someone else as always. Hell they will probably get another bailout down the road and move even more manufacturing facilities offshore. Its a proven business model for them. If it aint broke, why fix it?

I dont blame you for you anger towards Boeing. They are ruthless cut throating bastards. At least they actually keep the jobs in America after they shake someone down. Its like the mob selling protection. You have to actually deliver on the protection when another mob starts encroaching on the territory. . Bombardier does NOT deliver. They do not keep their promises after a shakedown. People without jobs do not want to hear about how their government is receiving dividends from a company that moved their jobs offshore.

Not trying to spin anything. Just pointing out that Boeing's greed has come back to bite them. Hopefully we drop the F-18 deal as well over this.

[shockedcanadian]

Boeing says Bombardier CSeries jets may face hefty duties despite Airbus deal

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuter ... -deal.html

Meh, nothing changes. Except Airbus made the heist of the century. I'm guessing a few in Canada will receive a nice Christmas Card this year.