[Zipperfish]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

So what are we saying then?

I think I've been pretty clear in what I'm saying, actually.

Your rage seems to be directed at the big nasty socialist gummint, but you've chosen to take it--rather illogically--on high-efficiency furnaces and wind farms. You are just completely irrational, but suffer from delusions of rationality.

$1:

And my old furnace worked fine. The old fashioned one I was able to sneak in before the deadline that the new untested-by-time ones had to be installed also works fine. If the enviro toys are any kind of improvement it has yet to be proven. I know the furnace guy I was yakkin with didn't think so. All I do know for sure is mine works fine.

No, the higher efficiency of high-efficiency home furnaces is not unproven. It's so proven that they actual gave them the name "high-efficiency furnaces."

$1:

And believe it or not, I haven't been asleep all these years. I know who is in power. Nevertheless the pressure of socialist policies, like toxic light bulb and furnace mandates doesn't stop. That's not free market. Free market would say if your crap is so much better than us, put us out of business by giving the people something they want more than what they got. Mandates are pussy, and Socialist. To tell you the truth Steven really disappointed me there, and I'm beginning to think maybe it's time to thank Steve for hanging in there as long as he did before he started to get corrupted by the red machine, and we conservatives should go looking for some fresh blood.

Yes, that's what they're essentially doing in the US right now. I don't think you'll see the same appetite in Canada. There's not a much of a rank-and-file notion that Stephen Harper is a socialist.

[N_Fiddledog]

I never mentioned any kind of "high efficiency furnace". That's a Prog term which means it is most likely the opposite of what it claims, like, for example the Affordable Care Act which is in reality the Unaffordable Less Care Act.

All I know is I called several furnace places before I managed to scoop up one of the old ones. None of those furnace people were impressed by the new furnaces, and they stood to make more money by installing one, so I'm thinking that means they were pretty serious.

You're attacking me on a personal level. I've found with you, when you start doing that it means you know you've lost. Maybe I should have mercy on you and just give you last word then go away. What do you think the odds are of that happening?

As to the two things you say I'm focused on. No, those are the ones you are focused on. You wanna talk? We'll talk. That's what I'm here for.

And again you don't have to be a Socialist leader to be pressured into statist policies. This is especially true in a country like Canada where we've become apathetic concerning our personal freedom and willing to just let the government fix it when pressure groups insist they can, then look the other way when they prove they can't.

But let's be clear, we're talking about these particular things, because you want to. I'm perfectly happy to go back and discuss the actual topic of Suzuki's scam poll on how wonderful he is.

[DrCaleb]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

I never mentioned any kind of "high efficiency furnace". That's a Prog term which means it is most likely the opposite of what it claims

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

What good comes of that? True we have twisty toxic light bulbs mandated on us now. We force crappy, inferior, supposedly energy efficient furnaces on the Canadian populace. We subsidize inefficient, wildlife slice n dice wind turbos in Ontario, and carbon tax for the sum good of nil in BC.

current-events-f59/david-suzuki-tops-list-of-most-admired-canadians-in-new-poll-t106569-45.html#p2014002

It's not a 'prog' term, its an 'industry' term.

$1:

Over the last 20 years, a new generation of higher efficiency gas furnaces and boilers has come to market. An essential difference in the design of these units is how they are vented, eliminating the need for dilution air. The combustion of gas produces certain by-products, including water vapour and carbon dioxide. In a conventional gas furnace, such by-products are vented through a chimney, but a considerable amount of heat (both in the combustion products and in heated room air) escapes through the chimney at the same time. Heat is also lost up the chimney when the furnace is off. The newer designs have been modified to reduce the amount of heated air that escapes during the on and off cycles and by extracting more of the heat contained in the combustion by-products before they are vented.

Furnaces with these design modifications use much less energy than conventional furnaces, so consider what this means to you in dollars.

$1:

Older Furnace Types
Conventional Gas Furnaces
A conventional gas-fired, forced-air heating system consists of a furnace with a naturally aspirating gas burner. Unlike newer units, which feature electronic ignition, these systems use a standing (continuously lit) pilot light. The combustion gases pass through the furnace, where they pass heat across a heat exchanger and are exhausted to the outside through a flue pipe and vent. A draft hood serves to isolate the burner from outside pressure fluctuations at the vent exit by pulling heated house air into the exhaust as required. A circulating fan passes cooled house air from the return ducts over the furnace heat exchanger, where the air is warmed and passed through ductwork to all areas of the house.

There are two entirely separate air movement paths:

•The combustion path supplies air to the burner and to the draft hood and carries hot combustion gases through the burner, heat exchanger and flue pipe to the vent and out of the house.
•The heat distribution and cold air return path circulates and heats the air inside the house.
Conventional gas furnaces have a seasonal efficiency of about 60 percent.

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/equipment/heating/7842

[N_Fiddledog]

Thank you Mister Technical. I'm curious though? Why do you link me to a government site as support for an idea a term they use is not political?

Do we really want to get into this? Even if we latch onto a case of industry using the term now for commercial use, what does it prove?

My claim is the opinion such terms often mean the opposite of what they claim, so an argument over definition goes nowhere. Accept my opinion, or don't. I only offer it.

Oh wait...was I supposed to be impressed, because the government was making claims of efficiency on its page? Got one where they explain how much more environmentally friendly the toxic, twisty, light bulbs with the mercury in them are? No offense, but personally I prefer the opinion of my furnace guys.

[DrCaleb]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Thank you Mister Technical. I'm curious though? Why do you link me to a government site as support for an idea a term they use is not political.

Because by definition 'government' is non-partisan. Which is why people get angry when that neutrality is abused with such terms as 'the Harper Government' instead of 'the Government of Canada'. I linked to Natural Resources Canada because trying to find an unbiased review of furnaces is pretty tough. Try it for yourself.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Do we really want to get into this? Even if we latch onto a case of industry using the term now for commercial use, what does it prove?

You asked in your original post, 'What good comes of that?'. Lower heating costs, less pollution is the good that comes of that. And they aren't using the term 'now', they invented the term.

You are a pretty smart guy, so it should be evident that on cool winter days, all the heat that's going out the exhaust pipe of houses is heat that isn't being used to heat the home, and costs money.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

My claim is the opinion such terms often mean the opposite of what they claim, so an argument over definition goes nowhere. Accept my opinion, or don't. I only offer it.

I accept your opinion as being based on flawed information, and a seemingly irrational attachment to the word 'prog'. I am attempting to correct it - which the the whole purpose of argument!

"High Efficency Furnace" means exactly what it says, not the opposite of what it says. More heat is kept inside the house, less gas is used to create the heat, and fewer pollutants are created from burning the gas.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Oh wait...was I supposed to be impressed, because the government was making claims of efficiency on its page? No offense, but personally I prefer the opinion of my furnace guys.

No offense, but the biggest concern I hear (I'm currently renovating my home) is that furnace guys who never bothered to keep up with the new technology and who install the high efficency furnaces incorrectly. This lowers their efficiency, and can draw toxic gasses into the home. It can even melt the siding on neignbouring homes. Installers who kept up on the newest technology love them for how much they save, and how easy they are to maintian. So forgive me if I don't prefer the opinions of inept furnace installers over the informed ones.

[martin14]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

No offense, but the biggest concern I hear (I'm currently renovating my home) is that furnace guys who never bothered to keep up with the new technology and who install the high efficency furnaces incorrectly. This lowers their efficiency, and can draw toxic gasses into the home. It can even melt the siding on neignbouring homes. Installers who kept up on the newest technology love them for how much they save, and how easy they are to maintian. So forgive me if I don't prefer the opinions of inept furnace installers over the informed ones.

You can buy pellet stoves in Italy, where the intake and exhaust are basically
PVC, and they are installed within 2' of each other.

Always wondered just how safe that really is.

[N_Fiddledog]

I'm trying to remember the complaints those furnace guys had about the new ones.

I do know the one guy I talked with the most was the owner of the furnace place that cleans my furnace annually. He's an old guy so maybe I can consider that, but he knows furnaces. I spoke with him as he installed. I'm not sure, but I think I might have some sort of hybrid. Have you heard of such things?

I think he was telling me how the improvements on the new ones are negligible and overstated. I know he was telling me there's problems with them. I can't remember exactly what, but my impression was he'd already encountered such problems.

Personally if I was that worried about energy loss, I'd spend the extra thousands the ventilation system on the new ones costs on plugging drafts in the walls and windows. I know that works.

But here's the real question. How come I can't have choice on what I want to do?

[Zipperfish]

Well that is true enough. If you have drafts all over the house, fixing those would be a better investment than a high-efficiency furnace.

[DrCaleb]

martin14 martin14:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

No offense, but the biggest concern I hear (I'm currently renovating my home) is that furnace guys who never bothered to keep up with the new technology and who install the high efficency furnaces incorrectly. This lowers their efficiency, and can draw toxic gasses into the home. It can even melt the siding on neignbouring homes. Installers who kept up on the newest technology love them for how much they save, and how easy they are to maintian. So forgive me if I don't prefer the opinions of inept furnace installers over the informed ones.

You can buy pellet stoves in Italy, where the intake and exhaust are basically
PVC, and they are installed within 2' of each other.

Always wondered just how safe that really is.

You can get those here too, $5 for a 40kg bag of pellets. They are computer fed, and recycle their own exhaust so they emit very little pollution or heat. PVC is fine on the exhaust, because it doesn't get even as hot as a dryer vent. Older wood burners needed the extra heat in the flue to prevent the buildup of creosote, which is destroyed in the recycling of exhaust.

I'd rather a big crackling fireplace, if it weren't for the big hole in the roof that draws cold air inside all winter long.

[DrCaleb]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

I'm trying to remember the complaints those furnace guys had about the new ones.

I'm just going by what I've read in many DYI guides, consumer reviews, furnace guys I've spoken to and news reports about bad contractors.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

But here's the real question. How come I can't have choice on what I want to do?

Because you aren't 'polluting' just your environment, but everyone elses' as well. Isn't that our measurement for right? Personal rights end where they interefere with another persons rights?

You have the right to rebuild your old furnace for as long as you want, or for as long as you can afford it. But safety and efficency laws prohibit new ones from being sold. Same with cars, same with light bulbs. (BTW - LEDs don't contain mercury! and CFLs contain so little mercury it's not worth noting!)

[N_Fiddledog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Well that is true enough. If you have drafts all over the house, fixing those would be a better investment than a high-efficiency furnace.

Glass patio doors. They're killer when old foundations shift. Gotta do something about that.

[N_Fiddledog]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Because you aren't 'polluting' just your environment, but everyone elses' as well.

Hang on a sec. Before we go any further, it's my turn to get technical. What exactly do you mean by "polluting", and what makes you think I'm doing it? What are the exact extra toxins you believe my system is emitting that is pollution?

[DrCaleb]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Because you aren't 'polluting' just your environment, but everyone elses' as well.

Hang on a sec. Before we go any further, it's my turn to get technical. What exactly do you mean by "polluting", and what makes you think I'm doing it? What are the exact extra toxins you believe my system is emitting that is pollution?

Byproducts of the combustion of hydrocarbons are always Carbon Dioxide and Water.

Byproducts of burning natural gas are also carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide (natural gas contains minute amounts of sulphur and nitrogen) and Nitrogen oxide. It's not that 'you' are doing it, it's that it's part of the process of burning natural gas. Everone does it.

Recirculating the emissions and superheating them can change the Nitorgen Oxide into Nitrogen Dioxide, and the Carbon Monoxide into Carbon Dioxide. Oxides can be far more reactive than Dioxides.

The EPA also has a huge list of chemicals than can be produced in industrial settings from natural gas burning. (TABLE 1.4-3)

http://www.epa.gov/ttnchie1/ap42/ch01/final/c01s04.pdf

[N_Fiddledog]

Well Carbon dioxide and water are not a pollutants, of course.

But what I'm asking is what pollutants do you believe I with my traditional furnace am emitting that you with your "high efficiency furnace" are not? Any support for that?

[Zipperfish]

martin14 martin14:

You can buy pellet stoves in Italy, where the intake and exhaust are basically
PVC, and they are installed within 2' of each other.

Always wondered just how safe that really is.

They make a lot of those pellets here in BC, I think.