[BeaverFever]

Alta_redneck Alta_redneck:

So you think all you have to do is hook a horse up to a wagon and it's going to pull it because it hasn't got a choice?

Good luck with that.

You know the old saying, " you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

If they don't like what their doing, or if their scared of what their doing, they ain't going to be doing it. They do it cause they love to race, it's bred into them.

Everyone that's against Chuckwagon racing should be protesting Thoroughbred Racing, cause if their shut down then there's no retired race horses being rescued from the meat market by the Chuckwagon Racers.

And where do retired Chuckwagon horses go, a horse condo in Florida? Chuckwagon racing is a fringe sport anyway, even within the rodeo community so I doubt they're prolonging the lives of that many racehorses.

And what do you think "bred into them" means anyway? It means they are bred for a temperment that responds to breaking and training. All horses like to run, I doubt any of them like to pull a wagon around a dangerous circuit next to a bunch of other horses doing the same.

Even if we beleive the far-fetched argument that horses do like wagon racing, that doesn't make it any more moral. It's like saying "hey, my kid enjoys playing in traffic, I'm just letting him be happy." And then you go on to suggest that they enjoy this dangerous sport because we deliberately "bred" them to enjoy it in the first place, which again brings the culpability back to irresponsible humans.

[OnTheIce]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

But I do think that most people are deliberately blind to where their meat comes fro (and most of their food) because a lot of it is ugly.

It's the benefit of being atop the food chain. We don't have to care how animals, bred only for human, consumption are killed.

I have more important things to be concerned about than whether or not a chicken had a good run this morning before they chopped his head off.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

We don't have to care how animals, bred only for human, consumption are killed.

I care. But just because we can't address the most deep-seated problems, doesn't mean we shouldn't address any problems at all.

The industrialized food system and its endemic cruelty to animals has unfortunately become an entrenched aspect of of the modern world - mostly because people are blind to where their food comes from, as you point out, it occurs out of the public eye and people remain wilfully ignorant of it. Chuckwagon racing, on the other hand, is not a fundamental element of our life, it is a fringe interest at best. When animals are killed and crippled at the rodeo it occurs infront of all spectators. Unlike what happens on the factory farm and abbatoir, the cruelty of the rodeo is directly witnessed by the end consumer.

[andyt]

well said. It's like the argument that you have to live in a cave to speak for reducing our carbon output.

As for cattle, most countries seem to have a healthy beef industry that doesn't rely on corn feedlots. Chickens probably produce more if they're not just confined to battery cages. We could go a ways to making these animals's lives a bit more pleasant and still not break the food bank. We don't have to treat them like members of the family, because they're not. But we don't enter our retarded cousin Bob in the Grand Prix just for shits and giggles either.

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

I care. But just because we can't address the most deep-seated problems, doesn't mean we shouldn't address any problems at all.

But really, how much do you care, besides saying "I care"?

I'm betting when someone drops a burger or steak on your plate you don't think "I wonder if this animal was treated properly?"

Do you check with restaurants where they buy their beef and research their slaughter house? Do you boycott certain food manufacturers because of how they treat their animals?

I'm better you'll answer no to the above and if you have done so, I'd be interested in the details.

I've heard people say it before, but in the end, when the meat hits the plate, the caring stops.

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

I care. But just because we can't address the most deep-seated problems, doesn't mean we shouldn't address any problems at all.

But really, how much do you care, besides saying "I care"?

I'm betting when someone drops a burger or steak on your plate you don't think "I wonder if this animal was treated properly?"

Do you check with restaurants where they buy their beef and research their slaughter house? Do you boycott certain food manufacturers because of how they treat their animals?

I'm better you'll answer no to the above and if you have done so, I'd be interested in the details.

I've heard people say it before, but in the end, when the meat hits the plate, the caring stops.

Well I do what I can, when I can. I'm a human who lives in the real world, which means that like anyone, my time and money are not infinite. I shouldn't have to quit my job to spend all my waking hours researching and travelling across the region to invidually gather ingredients straight from the farm but unfortunately, ther aren't alot of options. Certified "cruelty free", to my knoweldge, does not exist in Canada. I've looked into it. The grocery stores carry free-range and organic eggs, which I buy despite being unfairly over-priced. It would be nice if cruelty-free options for meat and other animal products were available, but unfortunately society seems to be moving in the opposite direction. It doesn't have to be this difficult and if there was one change I could make tomorrow, it would be for cruelty-free to be a reasonably priced and widely available option in grocery stores.

On the restaurant side, many places in TO offer organic food and/or use locally-sourced food which is more likely to be cruelty-free and those places get my repeat business. Hero Certified Burgers, for example. I avoid generic and chain restaurants when I can and I don't eat fois-gras or frogs legs or anything else that I think is prepared inhumanely by some pretentious chef. But again, I live in the real world. I can't afford to spend $25 on lunch every day and around my work there are only generic lunch counters and chain restaurants. Most often, I buy a smoked salmon sandwich or salad with tuna.

Sometimes I wish I had the fanatic discipline to be vegan, but the reality is I'm not a monk and I'm not so disciplined. Being a vegan is still harder than it needs to be...you have to cook everything from scratch, can only eat at a limited number of restaurants and have to have to be willing to eat the same base ingredients day after day for the rest of your life due to a lack of variety of plant-based staples meeting basic nutritional needs. Again, I think it's harder and more expensive than it has to be.

I don't think it makes me a hypocrite to say I live in the real world but wish the world was a better place.

[Caelon]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

The grocery stores carry free-range and organic eggs, which I buy despite being unfairly over-priced.

A portion of the price may be due to the niche market it caters to, but it does cost more to produce the product for free range and organic eggs. Hens housed in 'battery cages' produce 240+ eggs per hen housed (based on the number of hens on day 1) in a year (the average bird lays about 280 eggs). At the peak it is an egg per bird per day. Raising birds the old fashioned way is about half the egg production.

The modern broiler chicken goes from hatched chick to slaughter in about 6 weeks. It takes a little less than 2 lbs of feed to produce a pound of gain compared to 4.7 pounds of feed to a pound of gain in 1930. A broiler barn has tightly controlled temperatures and lighting to maximize the growth potential of the bird. Free range however produces stress due to environment, lighting, access to feed and water and takes longer to get to the same weight plus they consume more feed than those housed in barns. More time and more feed means a more expensive bird in the store. So you can spend less to buy a bird raised under modern conditions or you can spend more for the 'natural' free range variety . Your choice.

[jeff744]

beaver, you need to move to rural Sask, very few if any feedlots around here and you can buy meat straight from the farmer (or Hutterites) a lot of the time.

[fifeboy]

[Freakinoldguy]

jeff744 jeff744:

beaver, you need to move to rural Sask, very few if any feedlots around here and you can buy meat straight from the farmer (or Hutterites) a lot of the time.

Or just go into the York Hotel and they'll deliver cause even Hutterites need money for beer.

[Zipperfish]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

It's the benefit of being atop the food chain. We don't have to care how animals, bred only for human, consumption are killed.

I have more important things to be concerned about than whether or not a chicken had a good run this morning before they chopped his head off.

Exactly--millions every day--so why the crocodile tears for a couple of horses a year? better yet, why the horse tears for a couple of crocodiles?

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Well I do what I can, when I can. I'm a human who lives in the real world, which means that like anyone, my time and money are not infinite. I shouldn't have to quit my job to spend all my waking hours researching and travelling across the region to invidually gather ingredients straight from the farm but unfortunately, ther aren't alot of options. Certified "cruelty free", to my knoweldge, does not exist in Canada. I've looked into it. The grocery stores carry free-range and organic eggs, which I buy despite being unfairly over-priced. It would be nice if cruelty-free options for meat and other animal products were available, but unfortunately society seems to be moving in the opposite direction. It doesn't have to be this difficult and if there was one change I could make tomorrow, it would be for cruelty-free to be a reasonably priced and widely available option in grocery stores.

On the restaurant side, many places in TO offer organic food and/or use locally-sourced food which is more likely to be cruelty-free and those places get my repeat business. Hero Certified Burgers, for example. I avoid generic and chain restaurants when I can and I don't eat fois-gras or frogs legs or anything else that I think is prepared inhumanely by some pretentious chef. But again, I live in the real world. I can't afford to spend $25 on lunch every day and around my work there are only generic lunch counters and chain restaurants. Most often, I buy a smoked salmon sandwich or salad with tuna.

Sometimes I wish I had the fanatic discipline to be vegan, but the reality is I'm not a monk and I'm not so disciplined. Being a vegan is still harder than it needs to be...you have to cook everything from scratch, can only eat at a limited number of restaurants and have to have to be willing to eat the same base ingredients day after day for the rest of your life due to a lack of variety of plant-based staples meeting basic nutritional needs. Again, I think it's harder and more expensive than it has to be.

I don't think it makes me a hypocrite to say I live in the real world but wish the world was a better place.

With respect, I think your may be confused as to the term "organic" and how it related to the animals.

"Organic" refers to how they are raised (with or without drugs) and fed. It has nothing to do with the killing of the animal or cruelty in general.

There have been stories about organic farms being just as cruel as "standard" slaughterhouses. In the end, the animals all end up at the slaughterhouse, organic and non-organic.

[OnTheIce]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

It's the benefit of being atop the food chain. We don't have to care how animals, bred only for human, consumption are killed.

I have more important things to be concerned about than whether or not a chicken had a good run this morning before they chopped his head off.

Exactly--millions every day--so why the crocodile tears for a couple of horses a year? better yet, why the horse tears for a couple of crocodiles?

Simple.

These animals are used to entertain people.

Animals, like cows, are sent to the slaughterhouse as a food source.

Dying to entertain people or dying to feed people.

Big difference.

[Lemmy]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Simple.

These animals are used to entertain people.

Animals, like cows, are sent to the slaughterhouse as a food source.

Dying to entertain people or dying to feed people.

Big difference.

If you're talking about bullfighting, you're right. Chuck-wagon racing? Not so much.

[Yogi]

[quote="BeaverFever"]

Most often, I buy a smoked salmon sandwich or salad with tuna.

Talk about cruelly ( cruelty: intentionally causing pain or suffering...)killing an animal. VEGANS and other fish eaters are the worst if you (me) care to admit the truth! Taking a fish out of its life sustaining environment, watching it thrash and flop around for several minutes while it slowly suffocates to death...and then sitting down and discussing/trashing the chucks, and those who enjoy enjoy participating...

NONE of the injuries/deaths of the Stampede animals are done on purpose.

I'm sure someone has previously mentioned the word 'hypocrite'!