[andyt]

Well, I have to admit I don't really begrudge Putin the Crimea. He certainly has a huge strategic reason for wanting it, the people there want to be part of Russia. I just worry that this is the start of something instead of the end.

[Jabberwalker]

It all about process. Lots of people didn't begrudge Hitler taking the Sudetenland, either. It's a pretty analogous situation, actually. What is scary about Putin is that he's let us know that he is interested in re-building the old Soviet Empire by force.

[BRAH]

[peck420]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Okay, so we land paratroopers in Crimea.

Dead men, all.

If you must fight,... have to fight. make damn sure that you can and will win. Making meaningless gestures while expending other people's lives should be avoided at all costs.

Yea...because I said 'throw troops in Crimea'.

I already stated, way back, how to end this.

End sanctions on Iran, and get China off the fence.

[stratos]

$1:

Yea...because I said 'throw troops in Crimea'.

Wouldn't dropping them out of an airplane be much easier and less tiring?

[andyt]

peck420 peck420:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

Okay, so we land paratroopers in Crimea.

Dead men, all.

If you must fight,... have to fight. make damn sure that you can and will win. Making meaningless gestures while expending other people's lives should be avoided at all costs.

Yea...because I said 'throw troops in Crimea'.

I already stated, way back, how to end this.

End sanctions on Iran, and get China off the fence.

It's funny how we have all the experts on this forum who know just what to do while Western leaders flounder. Guess those leaders just can't see how simple the solution is. Time to kick them all out and put CKA in place. Problem solved in no time.

The West got in a pickle because it wanted to collect the peace dividend and thought establishing normal relations with Russia would be enough to keep it behaving itself. Hard to suddenly reverse course. Even harder with as soon as the pressure is off, everybody pushing to do business again to make a buck. At some point the West may face the same dilemma with China. And the US is just not in a position anymore to enforce pax Americana. That gets expensive after a while, and the bills become due.

NATO should take a long hard look at whether Ukraine as a whole is worth going out on a limb for. If not tho, they need to stiffen up and make sure that any NATO country is protected from the same fate. Maybe throw a few countries out of NATO first, if they're not worth defending.

[Zipperfish]

andyt andyt:

It's funny how we have all the experts on this forum who know just what to do while Western leaders flounder. Guess those leaders just can't see how simple the solution is. Time to kick them all out and put CKA in place. Problem solved in no time.

That's why we're here, on a politics board.

Although, reading Thinking Fast and Slow there was some great advice to force people to think things through. When someone proposes a solution, ask them:

"It's ten years down the road. You plan has completely and utterly ended in catastrophe. Explain to us what went wrong."

It forces you to consider modes of failure, which is not something we do naturally.

[andyt]

OK, let's try it. I think the West needs to realize that big daddy America is a waning force and can't expect to run the world anymore. It needs to define where it is reasonable to still expect to run the show, ie map out it's sphere of control the way Russia and China are. Pull together to protect this sphere, with strict sanctions against countries that want to sell out. Yes, I'm looking at you France, but any country. So a bit more of fortess NATO I suppose, with Japan and any other reasonable country that wants to join. Stop trying to control the middle east, it doesn't work. Ie be more isolationist beyond this sphere.

What can go wrong. Ramp up aggression and defensive responses from the other blocs and lead to a more hostile world. Lost opportunities for trade and prosperity. But I think it's coming anyway. Everybody is shitting themselves exactly when China will start it's expansionist drive and just burying their heads hoping against hope. Maybe we should get ahead of the trend instead of always reacting to it.

[peck420]

andyt andyt:

It's funny how we have all the experts on this forum who know just what to do while Western leaders flounder. Guess those leaders just can't see how simple the solution is. Time to kick them all out and put CKA in place. Problem solved in no time.

Our leaders are blinded by past politics.

Edit to expand:
Our illustrious leadership have yet to figure out that they are in a cultural war, not a political one...

[ShepherdsDog]

Maybe it`s time to leave Europe to its own devices. Our ancestors left the place to escape the constant internecine warfare. We need to keep an eye on the place, but we don`t need to defend those who willingly surrender their freedoms, and compromise their beliefs for every strongman that has come along since the fall of Rome.

[Thanos]

I doubt the Russians are going to be rampaging into central Europe a la the Third Reich anytime soon. All Putin's doing is engaging in some gutter-level irredentism and cheap nationalism. Russia by most standards is still a basket case and if they push it too far they'll collapse from over-extending themselves.

Realistically, Crimea and probably eastern Ukraine are a write-off. The demographic situation there, with to many ethnic Russians living in the eastern provinces, indicate that a partition is probably inevitable. What Europe and the US need to do is draw the line and let the Russians know, without any doubt whatsoever, that the Baltics, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary,Romania, Bulgaria, and every other former non-Russian satellite is off limits. And add all of western and central Ukraine to the protected list as well. They go to far and NATO has to drop the hammer on them. These countries joined NATO and the EU in the belief that they'd be protected from Russian aggression. Well, that time is now and the rest of us had better step up and live up to our word. If not then just disband NATO and the EU and whatever other so-called alliances or arrangements exist out there and quit pretending we ever gave a damn.

[DrCaleb]

$1:

UN General Assembly overwhelmingly condemns Russian annexation of Ukraine's Crimea
The United Nations General Assembly overwhelmingly came to the support of Ukraine, with 100 votes in favor and only 11 against, a resolution that labels Russia’s annexation of the Crimean peninsula as illegal.

The United Nations General Assembly, consisting of 193 member states, met on March 27 to discuss the crisis between Ukraine and Russia. Another 58 nations abstained.

The vote is hailed as overwhelming international support for Ukraine’s territorial integrity and security.

European Union representatives stressed that the 28-nation bloc remains committed to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine and doesn't recognize the Kremlin-orchestrated referendum on March 16, in which Russia and its leader in Crimea, Prime Minister Serhiy Aksyonov, claimed that 96 percent voted in favor of seceding from Ukraine and entering Russia.

The resolution also strongly condemns the use of violence towards Ukraine and “firmly believes there is no place for the use of force.”

Brazil representative urged the crises to be solved peacefully with Russia and Ukraine in diplomatic talks.

The Canadian representative claimed that Russian intervention poses a great threat to international security and peace. Japan agreed with the draft resolution and pledged to support Ukraine.

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukrain ... 41142.html

[Jabberwalker]

"It's ten years down the road. You plan has completely and utterly ended in catastrophe. Explain to us what went wrong."


Try getting Rumsfeld to answer THAT one!

... or Bush, Cheney, Wolfie and the rest of the former Hitler Jugend.

[Public_Domain]

[peck420]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

$1:

UN General Assembly overwhelmingly condemns Russian annexation of Ukraine's Crimea

$1:

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukrain ... 41142.html

Love it!

$1:

General Assembly resolutions have no legally binding force for governments, but represent world public opinion on the issue.

God, I would be impressed if Canada requested a motion to have Russia kicked from the Security Council, and all UN veto privileges revoked.