[Thanos]

Gunnair Gunnair:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

As they should.

Their idea. Their company. They took all the risk.

Their ideas and company put MILLIONS into the pockets of Canadians, thousands of well paying jobs and returns for investors alike.

They owe you and us NOTHING.

Companies rise and fall. Competition is part of business. Time to get a reality check and remove your head from your ass.

Bullshit. Without investors, they would have accomplished nothing. There is a reason why a company goes public and where do you think the money goes when joe public buys that stock?

They did not take all the risk, they squandered away the money of investors.

I can't believe you even posted that piece of drivel. You're like a right hand andy about this...

Word. I'd + rep you for that one if I could. That's the hard right answer for all of this out in plain sight for everyone to see. Screw everyone, including the investors. If I'm anti-shareholder it makes me a commie. If Jim Balsillie screws his investors? Why, that only means he's even a greater and more creative titan of industry than the rest of us peons could ever imagine. Modern corporatism in a nutshell: megalomania, criminality, and total delusion all mixed together into one toxic mess.

And to think that two years ago anyone who thought Gary Bettman was right to keep Balsillie out of the NHL were considered as the bad guys.

[BeaverFever]

RUEZ RUEZ:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Tricks Tricks:

What is considered a skilled tradesworker?

Any layabout who can vote L

Save your arrogant blather. I'm sure there are a lot of conservatives that work at this POS union busting plant.

Bart spare us your ignorant bullshit. Basically a skilled trade is any job that YOU couldn't do if they hired you tomorrow.

Skilled tradesmen (as oposed to general labourers) are workers whose job requires certification and specialized knowledge by law: mechanics, electrictians, plumbers, welders, carperters, there are many. A fully certified skilled tradesman is called a Journeyman.

Typcially, to become a Jounrneymanin in a skilled trade, one is first required to become an apprentice and complete 4-5 years of on-the-job apprenticeship under a provincially-approved training program. There are usually different levels of apprentices and one usually has to complete a series of practical and/or written exams to move up the levels. I say "usually" because the specifics are different for each trade. Some trades require applicants to complete certain highschool programs, for example electricians may require an apprentice applicant to have a minimum high school education with grade 12 math and successfully pass an aptitute test.

There are often mulitiple 'levels' of apprenticeship, a 1st year apprentice comonly earning half the hourly wage of a journeyman (but may not have pension or benefits) and generally doing a lot of 'grunt' work, like carrying tools and sweeping the shop floor. Because a "year" or work is typcially defined as a certain number of hours of work experience (e.g. 1,000 hours is not unmcommon)and work can be short-term, infreqeunt, interrupted by strikes, layoffs, etc. it can actually take longer than 4-5 years for an apprentice to move up the levels.

The sometimes "long road" to a full wage is one reason that skilled tradesmen deserve decent pay. In addition, industrial labour (skilled or unskilled)is often dangerous as workers are often working from heights, dealing with flamable material, gas lines, electial wires, heavy equipment and machinery that can easily kill or permanently main a hapless worker. Repetitive physical strain, prolonged exposure to noise and air pollutants, rotating shift work, etc can also have long-term physical and mental health implications. In Ontario alone, 377 workers died from workplace injuries or diseases in the last fiscal year (a 16% increase from the year before).

[Thanos]

In Bart's defense, the United States looks at tradespeople differently than Canadians or Europeans do. We here and businesses in Europe understand that it takes a lot of work, education, and experience to make a good journeyman. Europeans regard mechanical skill so highly that a young person who has these talents can have a good career path developed for them before they even finish high school. In the US, and I wish I were joking about this, the only real priority for a tradesman is that they be able to pass a drug test. To a huge percentage of American employers, skilled labour is still just menial labour, and not regarded too much better than an ex-con or illegal immigrant that gets hired to sweep the floor or pick fruit for less than minimum wage. Americans have a mental thing going where if a worker doesn't have a university degree or hi-tech training then they're considered non relevant to the interests of the business culture. Unless they're unionized workers however. When that happens they're considered by all the massa's to be a greater threat to America than Tojo and Bin Laden combined.

[BeaverFever]

RUEZ RUEZ:

If American companies are going to continually buy up Canadian companies and move production, perhaps the governmnet should be reviewing all corporate takeovers. This also happened to Western Star in Kelowna. Frieghtliner bought them and within two years the factory was shuttered and move to Oregon with all it's high paying jobs.

Don't forget Navistar, who closed up the Chatham ON plant after taking a $65 million "investment" from the Canadian government and another $41 million from woerkers in the form of wage concessions (another nail in the theory that unions only 'take' from employers). They still got a juicy $275 million no-bid military contract from the Harper government after that though...which goes to Gunny's point that purchasers don't care about anything but the product and the price.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

RUEZ RUEZ:

If American companies are going to continually buy up Canadian companies and move production, perhaps the governmnet should be reviewing all corporate takeovers. This also happened to Western Star in Kelowna. Frieghtliner bought them and within two years the factory was shuttered and move to Oregon with all it's high paying jobs.

Don't forget Navistar, who closed up the Chatham ON plant after taking a $65 million "investment" from the Canadian government and another $41 million from woerkers in the form of wage concessions (another nail in the theory that unions only 'take' from employers). They still got a juicy $275 million no-bid military contract from the Harper government after that though...which goes to Gunny's point that purchasers don't care about anything but the product and the price.

Sadly, this is nothing new when it comes to US companies. Kelsey Hayes did the same thing after the original FTA was signed. Just before the FTA, K-H was going to shut down it's Windsor steel wheels plant. The feds and province both gave them tax money to re-tool to aluminum wheels. They took it, and as soon as the FTA was signed, off to the US they went. Seriously, I don't think the ink was even dry before K-H announced the closure and relocation.

[OnTheIce]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Bullshit. Without investors, they would have accomplished nothing. There is a reason why a company goes public and where do you think the money goes when joe public buys that stock?

They did not take all the risk, they squandered away the money of investors.

I can't believe you even posted that piece of drivel. You're like a right hand andy about this...

You can always tell a guy with zero business experience.

Investors put their money behind two guys with a great idea. They got financed as a private company well before they had their IPO. Try and know the story before you spout off.

You go ahead and drop your job and run with an idea and make it work like these guys did. Drop out of university, take a loan from your parents to get it going, just like Mike Lazaridis did.

Good luck.

Chances are, you'll fail and fall on your face like most who try to start their own business, just like you've done in this post.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

andyt andyt:

Read the paper how people are exhorted to buy stuff to boost Canada's economy. It's not just manufacturing, but apparently the meme is that retailing crap brings jobs. Should those people retailing the crap really not be able to afford any of it themselves?

I accuse you of being gleeful, because that's all you ever focus on - people spending beyond their means. You're blaming the victim for wanting the crap they are told every day to want. How about blaming the people who push the stuff?

I was right, you actually want to blame them for "making us want their stuff so badly"
That's weak sauce andy. Do not enter that sauce in a BBQ competition because that sauce is weak.

So I guess it WAS Ozzy's fault that kid offed himself listening to suicide solution?
I guess it's always the fault of visual media when idiots attempt to emulate what they've seen.

And of course, it's the fault of advertisers and manufactureres for making you want their products so badly.
"Buy Tiger Woods brand golf clubs. Your friends own Tiger Woods brand golf clubs. Yer a mega double-weenie if you don't own Tiger Woods Brand Golf clubs",
gimmie a break.
Typical lefty crap though, blame someone else for your lack of will-power.

When someone is smoker, who's at fault? The tobacco farmers? The cigarette manufacturers? The gov't that allows it to be sold while taxing the crap out of it? You can maybe put some blame on those groups but ultimately, the blame falls on the smokers themselves.
I used to smoke. Guess whose fault that was? Mine!!
But if I'm dumb enough to smack my credit card and go into debt to buy something I can't really afford and don't really need, you want to blame the manufacturer/advertiser?
Get real bub.

[andyt]

Actually the them in the paper I was referring to was the Editorial writers who wrote that crap. (And they got some nasty letters in return, not everybody buys into buy buy buy). We had George Bush and his if we stop spending the terrorists have won. And we have the news and business pages full of angst about will the consumer pull country X out of recession.

People are responsible for what they do. But you always focus on that angle in this discussion, saying in effect "there's no problem with ever greater inequality, it's just that middle and low income groups want too much too soon. They should know their place and not worry their little heads about a small group of people amassing ever greater wealth and the power that comes with it." As I said, a Victorian attitude.

[BeaverFever]

An update and some clarifications to this story:

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/317225


- Even after receiving the "final offer" from CAT and a strike mandate from its members, CAW did not call a strike and instead advised members to continue to work while negotiations continue. This is when CAT locked them out.

- The pay cuts and pension elimination do appear to be applicable to active employees, not just new hires

- The cuts apply to production workers (including engineers and tradesmen) but not all workers are facing cuts of 50%. Engineers were only to have their pay cut by 15% but would also lose their pension.

-Several weeks prior to the lockout, the company appears to have been advertising for 'scabs,' suggesting that the labour stoppage was a pre-planned event.

According to another article, the CAT cuts also include (but are not limited to):
- elimination of pension
- reduced health and benefit coverage
- 25% of benefit premiums to be paid by employee through payroll deductions
- elimination of other 'fringe' benefits, such as Mat Leave top-up

I think this article below sums it up:

$1:

ttp://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2012/01/02/19190696.html
Jude Taylor plans to picket for as long as it takes because he believes in the cause. But on the home front, a different reality is already beginning to take shape. He's the sole breadwinner in a family that includes three kids, the middle of them a boy who's intellectually challenged and suffers from epilepsy.

For Taylor, it's as much about health benefits as it is about an hourly wage. He'd spend about $400 a month just on medication if the company's last offer is accepted. Naturally, the situation will grow more ominous as each day without benefits passes.

"Without his pills he has seizures and he's just becoming a teenager, so that's making things worse with his hormones. In a very short time, I could find myself in bankruptcy and on assistance without a job."

Taylor called the company's offer an insult.

"They paid me to have an education, to be smart and know my job. Not just anyone can do this. It's not line work. We're dealing with people's lives. We have to be perfect, so they shouldn't pay us like we work in retail."

...

"We have locomotives passing over our heads; some people are working with 3,000 volts at their fingertips," he said.

"If we send out one locomotive that's faulty, people can get hurt and they can die. We take our job very seriously and we make damn good locomotives."

[OnTheIce]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Get real bub.

It's meaningless babble. Put him on ignore...so much more sane around here with that garbage.

It's like trying to reason with a cinder block.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

andyt andyt:

Actually the them in the paper I was referring to was the Editorial writers who wrote that crap. (And they got some nasty letters in return, not everybody buys into buy buy buy). We had George Bush and his if we stop spending the terrorists have won. And we have the news and business pages full of angst about will the consumer pull country X out of recession.

People are responsible for what they do. But you always focus on that angle in this discussion, saying in effect "there's no problem with ever greater inequality, it's just that middle and low income groups want too much too soon. They should know their place and not worry their little heads about a small group of people amassing ever greater wealth and the power that comes with it." As I said, a Victorian attitude.

Still don't see how you can confuse the concept of "save up til you can afford it", with not buying anything at all.
Tell me, how does the consumer digging himself a deeper debt hole pull a country out of a recession?

[andyt]

I agree with you about save until you can afford it. Actually I don't even buy it then, often. I'm not big on buying lots of crap. We have no argument there.

But the only time you come up with this is when the discussion is about growing inequality, poverty, etc. You don't make anti-materialism, or even just frugality posts on their own. And you never really say anything but "save until you can afford it" in an equality post. You seem to have no concern about growing inequality, only want to lecture those stupid proles who dare to want some of the good life too - they should just be happy with their lot and quit making trouble for their masters.

[OnTheIce]

[PublicAnimalNo9]

andyt andyt:

I agree with you about save until you can afford it. Actually I don't even buy it then, often. I'm not big on buying lots of crap. We have no argument there.

But the only time you come up with this is when the discussion is about growing inequality, poverty, etc. You don't make anti-materialism, or even just frugality posts on their own. And you never really say anything but "save until you can afford it" in an equality post. You seem to have no concern about growing inequality, only want to lecture those stupid proles who dare to want some of the good life too - they should just be happy with their lot and quit making trouble for their masters.

Oh ok, so yer whole issue is that I haven't created reams of threads to hammer on the same point over and over ad nauseum.
As for your assinine assumption of what I think, yer right. I used to be poor, now I'm not. I dared to want some of the good life. Now I have some. And do you know how I accomplished that? I didn't sit on a computer lamenting how the rich had it so much better than I did.
I don't have a uni education. Hell, it took me 5 years to graduate high school.
The difference is, I not only dared to want some of the good life too, I went after it!! S'all 'bout the priorities, andy.

[andyt]

So glee after all?