[eureka]

It is that attitude in English Canada, andy, that was responsible for the difficulties. There would have been no separatist movement; no language laws, but for the indifference of the rest of Canada to the plight of Quebeckers. Most of whom opposed both the laws and separation.

In 1973, more than 20% of the population of Quebec was Anglophone. Montreal was the second largest English speaking city in Canada and the commercial centre of Canada. In less than a decade, close to 50% of Anglophones had left the province because they had to contend with xenophobia in Quebec and massive indifference in other provinces.

That is not an indictment of Francophones. In a survey done in 1979, 77 (or 73)% of the Francophones in the Western half of Montreal opposed language laws and they could never have been imposed to placate the malcontents without Canada turning a blind eye.

[andyt]

Well, what is the plight that I'm so indifferent to? They suck up huge amounts of equalization payments, get special deals on all sorts of things, Bombardier heavily subsidized and Mulroney sending them the jet contract etc, yet are always complaining they're sucking hind tit. What exactly are we doing to them that's so bad they want to leave this country?

I know I should be grateful to Quebec for skewing Canada more left than would otherwise be the case, but I just don't see what they have to whine about except historical grievances. That was then, this is now. Just like the Natives, any bias is now tilted in their favor instead of against them. What's wrong with expecting Quebec to sign the constitution and to allot them seats in parliament based on rep by pop? Yes, the west is becoming more populous, should't parliament reflect that?

[RUEZ]

eureka eureka:

There would have been no separatist movement; no language laws, but for the indifference of the rest of Canada to the plight of Quebeckers.

Those are the kind of attitudes that make me want to give Quebec a push out of Canada.

[PimpBrewski123]

RUEZ RUEZ:

eureka eureka:

There would have been no separatist movement; no language laws, but for the indifference of the rest of Canada to the plight of Quebeckers.

Those are the kind of attitudes that make me want to give Quebec a push out of Canada.

And with that sort of attitude, I'll pitch a tent in your backyard and bring a sign : ''Occupy Ruez''




lol

[eureka]

I think I pointed out, andy, that the majority of Francophone Quebeckers never supported any of this. I also pointed to the fact that more than 600,000 Anglophone Quebeckers were forced to leave Quebec - the greatest displacement of a population since that of the East Germans, btw, after WWII.

English speaking Quebeckers are now second class citizens of Canada.

This is all because of the Provincialism and indifference of many areas of Canada to the country as a whole.

[MacDonaill]

eureka eureka:

I think I pointed out, andy, that the majority of Francophone Quebeckers never supported any of this. I also pointed to the fact that more than 600,000 Anglophone Quebeckers were forced to leave Quebec - the greatest displacement of a population since that of the East Germans, btw, after WWII.

English speaking Quebeckers are now second class citizens of Canada.

This is all because of the Provincialism and indifference of many areas of Canada to the country as a whole.

The majority of Francophone Quebeckers (60%) voted for separation in 1995.

No Anglophone was ever 'forced' to leave the province. They chose to because either they or their employers were unwilling to live in a Quebec where French would be the language of commerce, education, public communication and the State. They had the right to stay, and there are still half a million Anglophones in Quebec today who seem to be doing just fine.

The population was not 'displaced', it voluntarily decided it would be more comfortable elsewhere and left on its own. There is a huge difference.

As for the 'second-class citizens' remark, that is simply and utterly bullshit. Annglophones in Quebec are probably the most comfortable minority anywhere in the world. They have full civil rights and full access to all government services in English where numbers warrant (just like Francophones supposedly have in the ROC). There are English hospitals, English primary and secondary schools, English CÉGEPs, English universities, English television and radio networks, English newspapers and I dare you to find any store or café on St-Catherine's where service isn't happily offered in English (usually more happily than French).

You're full of it.

[Zipperfish]

A lot of people left because of the instability, when the threat of imminent separation was greater. If you have a family, or you're a business owner, then it can make it difficult to make long term plans adn deal with the unknowns of a separated Quebec.

[eureka]

Would you really like to get into that, MacDonaill. I assure you that you have no idea what you are talking about. While I was more heavily involved in it than 99% of the population of Quebec or Canada. I even wrote part of the statement of claim for the Action by the Quebec Federation of Schools against Bill 101. Since I am not a lawyer, it was restricted to the profiles of the plaintiffs.

One example of those was a Boy adopted from New Brunswick parents on condition of being raised as an English Protestant yet forced to attend a French Catholic school.

From the tone you have just taken, I judge it will be a very nasty exchange.

I also was part of the group that ordered that survey in 1978 and still have a copy of the results.

You are probably unaware of some pertinent facts such as there was never before 1980 more than 11% support for separation in Quebec. That is the core of the movement and it has not much changed. 60% of Francophone Quebeckers did not vote for separation in 1995 either. They have always voted for a different arrangement than they have. Support for separation is small.

Your talk of Anglophone Quebeckers is nothing less than idiotic. I can assure from my knowledge that, but for the 401 highway there would have been a violent response to Bill 101. An Act that has only one parallel in the history of the modern nation state. That is in the Magyar dominated Hungary of pre WWI. That act rebounded into the destruction of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the eventual breakup of Hungary itself.

Besides being one of the strong roots of WWI.

Those hospitals and educational institutions you mention were built by Anglophone Quebeckers with their own money and without any aid of the Quebec government which did not even have compulsory schooling until long after every other area of Canada. They have been taken over by the government and forced to operate in French.

Are you aware of such harmless provisions of the language laws as those that require communications between Union executive and members of English speaking groups to be in French? Or that offers of promotion to English speaking personnel must be in French?

And Anglophones are not a minority in Quebec. They are part of the Canadian majority where a local majority is the most pampered and spoiled minority in the world.

[EyeBrock]

There's a few more examples of nations breaking up post WW1 to expand on your 'one parallel in history'.

Eire

Czechoslovakia

Yugoslavia

This is by no means a comprehensive list. We could also look at the GDR for a USSR slant on nations breaking up or the potential for Belgium to split along Flemish and French lines in modern Europe.

Personally I don't think Quebec will ever leave the fold. I'm pretty sure they will still be talking about it in another couple of hundred years though.

[eureka]

That was about language legislation and the relegation of nationalities to second class status. Hungary initiated laws similar but not quite so sweeping as Quebec. Quebec xenophobes set up other bodies like a "Department of Toponymy" whose task was to eradicate English place names and replace them with French.

Also, it is now a different world. The example I cited in education (one of seven) is a direct violation of the International Covenant on the Child which clearly states that the Right of choice in education is with the parents.

Several other provisions of Bill 101 are in violation of International Agreements to which Canada is signatory.

Canadian Courts have ruled in favour of the "law." But, a UN panel investigating after the reference of a specific case (Davidson & ? was, I think the style) concluded that the laws were illegal. It also said, in the fashion of the UN when dealing with First World countries, that it could not intervene in Canada until "all domestic resources were exhausted." What resources are left I do not know.

The further implication of that ruling is that Quebec does not have any right of self determination - in the sense of separation or nationality. It does not meet the criteria established for those Rights. If it did, then the laws would have been within Quebec's jurisdiction and English Canadians in Quebec would have been relegated to national minority status.

[EyeBrock]

Belgium is all about language.

[raydan]

But it seems to be working well in Switzerland, having 4 official languages.

[saturn_656]

raydan raydan:

But it seems to be working well in Switzerland, having 4 official languages.

Only three of those languages have full and equal status (German, French, and Italian). Also, ignoring Italian, German and French native speakers make up 80-85 percent of the population.

Switzerland isn't that much different from Canada, save for their majority language is German, not English.

[saturn_656]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Belgium is all about language.

Now there is a country quite literally coasting on bureaucratic inertia alone.

Free Flanders!

[MacDonaill]

eureka eureka:

I am not a lawyer...

It is clear that you are indeed not a lawyer, since you display a clear inability to compose a coherent argument, to distinguish nuances between concepts and, most importantly, to provide proof to support your crackpot statements.

$1:

One example of those was a Boy adopted from New Brunswick parents on condition of being raised as an English Protestant yet forced to attend a French Catholic school.

What boy? Where? When? Forced by whom? How does this have anything to do with second-class citizenship? What the hell are you even talking about?

$1:

I also was part of the group that ordered that survey in 1978 and still have a copy of the results.

A survey of what in 1978? Again, you completely neglect to specify what you are talking about and to demonstrate its connection to the actual topic at hand. This is nothing but bla-bla. Where's the beef?

$1:

60% of Francophone Quebeckers did not vote for separation in 1995 either. They have always voted for a different arrangement than they have. Support for separation is small.

That's funny, because here is a study of the results performed by the Université de Montréal which says precisely that 60% of French-speaking Quebeckers of all national origins voted YES in 1995. I doubt that you are literate enough to read French (which is certainly the real reason you chose to leave Québec), but there it is in black and white: http://www.pum.umontreal.ca/apqc/95_96/drouilly/drouilly.htm

$1:

Your talk of Anglophone Quebeckers is nothing less than idiotic. I can assure from my knowledge that, but for the 401 highway there would have been a violent response to Bill 101.

Dude, I am an Anglophone living in Québec... in French Quebec. I love it. I get along more than fine. A violent response? Please.

$1:

Those hospitals and educational institutions you mention were built by Anglophone Quebeckers with their own money and without any aid of the Quebec government which did not even have compulsory schooling until long after every other area of Canada. They have been taken over by the government and forced to operate in French.

All hospitals in Canada are now essentially public institutions. In this sense, all hospitals, no matter who founded them, have been 'taken over' by the government. The English hospitals in Montréal still operate in English. A huge chunk of the personnel in those hospitals don't even speak French. It's clear that you have not lived in Montréal for a long time. The English hospitals also receive much more funding than the current Anglo demographic would justify. Here's another source, from a mostly federalist blog, if you can read it: http://www.leblogueduql.org/2007/04/les_hpitaux_ang.html

$1:

Are you aware of such harmless provisions of the language laws as those that require communications between Union executive and members of English speaking groups to be in French? Or that offers of promotion to English speaking personnel must be in French?

I would be impressed if you could tell me which articles of the Charter of the French Language (which, as all laws in Québec, is printed in English) supposedly stipulate those requirements. Don't expect me to do your fact-checking for you. I spend enough of my time reading the law.

What I can say is that supposing those requirements exist, I don't see any injustice whatsoever in them. The language of public communication, of labour and conventions collectives and of basically everything else in Québec is French. It doesn't prevent anyone from using any language they want in their private, personal communications. Go to any other normal country and the story is the same. In Germany, an employer will send official communications to his employees in German. In China, it's Mandarin. In Sweden, it's Swedish. In Québec, whether it's a Canadian province or not, it's French. The Constitution guarantees the provinces full discretion in their designated competencies. Quebec has every right to designate an official language and to ensure its use in the public sphere for public communication. The Supreme Court of Canada has confirmed this. You lose.

$1:

And Anglophones are not a minority in Quebec. They are part of the Canadian majority...

They are a Canadian majority but Canada is not a unitary State, it's a federation. This is an objective fact as outlined in the 1867 British North America Act, which means that in the Province of Québec, anglophones are the minority.