[Proculation]

$1:

People can live more or less moral lives without needing to be bogged down by absolutes. The world is a patchwork of grey not black or white as some would have us believe. The whole concept of morality suffers from the fact that there isn't just one interpretation of what is and isn't moral.

So, 2+2=3 ?

[andyt]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

So I am not 'blaming the victims' as some folks would like to say in order to shame me into silence. I am, however, noting that in turning the tables on the right it is the left who are now The Establishment and there's people on the right who have no place in the Utopia that well-meaning liberals would force on them.

The left certainly aren't the Establishment ins the States, despite the victimization bleating of the right. Nor in Canada.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Isn't it ironic that the people who have spent the past century deconstructing morality and Western Civilization...leftists...are the very ones being victimized by what they have wrought?

And you can't pass this off as the right having no place in a left Utopia - as if that means Breivik had some right to do what he did. To say the left "wrought" the conditions that "made" Breveik do this is blaming the victim. As I've said, it's no different than saying the US "wrought" the conditions that caused 9/11.

What exactly has the left "wrought" in Norway? A country of peace and tolerance. Those evil bastards, yep it's certainly understandable how somebody would want to shoot them for that. Just those well deserved chickens coming home to roost.

[Dragon-Dancer]

Proculation Proculation:

$1:

People can live more or less moral lives without needing to be bogged down by absolutes. The world is a patchwork of grey not black or white as some would have us believe. The whole concept of morality suffers from the fact that there isn't just one interpretation of what is and isn't moral.

So, 2+2=3 ?

*glaces around* I'm sorry, did I stray into a math class by mistake?

[CommanderSock]

Proculation Proculation:

$1:

People can live more or less moral lives without needing to be bogged down by absolutes. The world is a patchwork of grey not black or white as some would have us believe. The whole concept of morality suffers from the fact that there isn't just one interpretation of what is and isn't moral.

So, 2+2=3 ?

Morality isn't a set of equations, neither is the issue of governance. Otherwise all we'd have to do is plug in the set of variables and we'd never need another political debate.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

What exactly has the left "wrought" in Norway? A country of peace and tolerance.

Really?

An actual Norwegian says otherwise.

$1:

Oslo Crime Rate four times that of New York
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local ... 299327.ece


Four times more crime in Oslo than New York

The crime rate in Oslo has been growing at an alarming rate and recent statistics show the Norwegian capital had 20 percent more robberies last year than in 2006.

While crime in the rest of Norway has been going down, it has been quite another situation in Oslo, where personal and automobile thefts increased markedly last year.

There were 10,600 crimes reported in public places in 2007, up from 8,000 a year earlier, writes Norwegian daily newspaper Dagbladet.

Oslo had the highest rate per person in Scandinavia in terms of reported crimes, with 90 reported crimes per 1,000.

Copenhagen had 50 crimes reported per 1,000 and Stockholm had 79.

In New York City, there were 22 reported crimes per 1,000 inhabitants.

This means there were four times as many reported crimes per person in Oslo as in New York.

The Oslo police are blaming the increase on an influx of East Europeans, and Minister of Justice Knut Storberget is reportedly partly in agreement.

However, Storberget said it is necessary to be careful drawing parallels with such statistics. "But regardless, we can say the crime figures in Oslo are too high," he was reported to have said.

[andyt]

Norwegian Crime stats 71.9 per 1,000 people
American Crime stats 80.1 per 1,000 people



From your own govt: CRIME: Norway still has a relatively low level of crime in comparison to the United States and Western European countries with large populations. The most likely forms of crime, especially in the Oslo metropolitan area, include residential and office burglaries and petty thefts. In Oslo and the other major urban areas, crime has predictably been centered in the inner city and high transit areas. As in any other Western country, especially in urban areas, you should exercise basic security awareness. Although rare, violent and weapons-related crimes are growing in frequency and receiving intense media coverage. These crimes usually occur in areas known to have drug trafficking and gang problems, such as certain parts of eastern Oslo. Reports have shown an increase in rape in Norway, with parts of eastern Oslo, such as Grünerlokka, being an area of particular concern when it comes to this violent crime. You should be aware that instances of pick-pocketing and petty theft are predictably common in major tourist areas, hotel lobbies, train and transit stations, and surrounding areas.

[BartSimpson]

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

Morality isn't a set of equations

Morality is a series of if/then functions which are equations.

For instance:

IF you only have sex with your spouse THEN you need not worry about getting caught.

IF you never steal from people THEN people are more likely to trust you.

IF you say you want a fight THEN you should not be surprised when you get punched in the face.

And one that is timely and current on the forum today:

IF you obey the CKA Terms of Use THEN the Moderators won't suspend your account.

As to morality being subjective then you have to accept that what Breivik did was not wrong and no one should judge him for what he did. Because, goodness gracious, no one wants anyone to call them judgmental.

Sorry, but morals need to be commonly held and commonly accepted as absolutes elsewise society is going to break down as one person after another decides that moral codes don't apply to them.

A few minutes ago I was out to coffee with a coworker who is a convert to Christianity who moved to the USA from Kuwait in order to safely practice his new faith. I've not had a chance to look it up yet but he tells me that the Kuwaiti government is now considering the legalization of slavery. Non-Muslims would be bought and sold in Kuwait because under the Islamic worldview it's okay to enslave non-Muslims.

Now, are you going to say that the Kuwaitis are morally wrong for their point of view? Or are you going to be non-judgmental and let them enslave Westerners, Asians, and Africans because morality is a big, grayish blob of meaningless and outdated traditions that have no place in the modern world?

[andyt]

$1:

Kohlberg’s Stages of Moral Development

Although it has been questioned as to whether it applied equally to different genders and different cultures, Kohlberg’s (1973) stages of moral development is the most widely cited. It breaks our development of morality into three levels, each of which is divided further into two stages:

Preconventional Level (up to age nine):

~Self Focused Morality~

1. Morality is defined as obeying rules and avoiding negative consequences. Children in this stage see rules set, typically by parents, as defining moral law.

2. That which satisfies the child’s needs is seen as good and moral.

Conventional Level (age nine to adolescence):

~Other Focused Morality~

3. Children begin to understand what is expected of them by their parents, teacher, etc. Morality is seen as achieving these expectations.

4. Fulfilling obligations as well as following expectations are seen as moral law for children in this stage.

Postconventional Level (adulthood):

~Higher Focused Morality~

5. As adults, we begin to understand that people have different opinions about morality and that rules and laws vary from group to group and culture to culture. Morality is seen as upholding the values of your group or culture.

6. Understanding your own personal beliefs allow adults to judge themselves and others based upon higher levels of morality. In this stage what is right and wrong is based upon the circumstances surrounding an action. Basics of morality are the foundation with independent thought playing an important role.

IF you only have sex with your spouse THEN you need not worry about getting caught. Sounds like stage one to me.

[martin14]

andyt andyt:

. These crimes usually occur in areas known to have drug trafficking and gang problems, such as certain parts of eastern Oslo. Reports have shown an increase in rape in Norway, with parts of eastern Oslo, such as Grünerlokka, being an area of particular concern

awww, and guess who lives in the eastern part of Oslo ?

[andyt]

Yes, I recall the discussion around that. But what's your point in this context?

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

IF you only have sex with your spouse THEN you need not worry about getting caught. Sounds like stage one to me.

Indeed.

$1:

That which satisfies the child’s needs is seen as good and moral.

Stage two, as stated above, brings to mind your fascination with raising the minimuum wage.

[Zipperfish]

[quote="Dragon-Dancer"]Fined for hate speech when applicable perhaps but jailed? I've not heard of such a thing happening.

Keegstra and Zundel maybe? It's illegal in Canada to question the Holocaust. At least out loud.

[BartSimpson]

Thanks, Zip, I meant to answer that but forgot about it.

[Proculation]

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

Proculation Proculation:

$1:

People can live more or less moral lives without needing to be bogged down by absolutes. The world is a patchwork of grey not black or white as some would have us believe. The whole concept of morality suffers from the fact that there isn't just one interpretation of what is and isn't moral.

So, 2+2=3 ?

Morality isn't a set of equations, neither is the issue of governance. Otherwise all we'd have to do is plug in the set of variables and we'd never need another political debate.

Morality should be based on philosophy and philosophy is the study of rationality and truth. There's no grey zone in that.

[BartSimpson]

Proculation Proculation:

Morality should be based on philosophy and philosophy is the study of rationality and truth. There's no grey zone in that.