[andyt]

Caelon Caelon:

andyt andyt:

Just as I'm not alone in Canada in thinking our immigration rate is way too high and we're taking in too many people who cost us money. We both have some wind at our backs.

But again, NAFTA says we have to pay the same for oil be produce as what we charge the US. How we then decide to tax that oil vs the US is up to each country. But I've tried to point out the benefits of taxing oil at it's true cost. If that gives the govt a surplus to pay down the debt, that's great. Or if they're able to reduce taxes in other areas that's great too.

As far as the tax subsidy for the tar sands, I'm against that too. But, if there were some Albertans on this forum they would tell you exactly why they think that subsidy is a great idea - it ultimately flows to them in the form of increased economic activity and income to the Alberta govt so they don't have to pay GST. They love it. They're really making the same argument you are - lower oil prices artificially because then we can live it up. But it's a mugs game to do that.

You are correct in the NAFTA ruling on oil prices. As for subsidies they are mostly in the form of tax deferment or excellerated write offs for development. On a quick search I was not able to find a balanced report showing the cost of the tax deferment versus the increased revenue from workers, support industries, population growth, tertiary industries , etc. It is not a closed economic system so you cannot look at one number to see the total picture.

I can tell you when the oil prices dropped so did the western economy and when the prices rose the ecocnmic wel being did as well. It is not just jobs in Fort Mac, but jobs in the restaraunt trade in Calgary that jumped too. There is a lot more money cycling through all aspects of the Alberta economy today than was present in 2009

Supposedly we subsidize the oil sands to the tune of 2 billion a year. We should cut that out, just as we shouldn't subsidize other industries. The oil industry will have legitimate expenses that they can write off. But if it takes subsidies to get the oil flowing, we should not do it, wait until oil is expensive enough to pay for itself.

[peck420]

The subsidies should be stopped. 100% agreement.

Where are the corporations going to go? the oil ain't moving.

As for NAFTA, it is based on a 3 month average. If the Canadian government was at all interested in manipulating it they could. But, they already have it in a way that best suits them and their friends...

If it was me, I would jack the price of gas by $1-$2 / litre, then offer Canadian citizens a tax rebate on their personal income tax. We could maximize the profits on oil sold abroad and subsidise the citizen to pretty much what ever level we want.

Would it hurt in the short term? Maybe.

Would the US stop buying our oil? Maybe...too bad there is a pretty lengthy list of countries (none in NAFTA ) that would be willing to purchase it.

[Curtman]

peck420 peck420:

There is absolutely no reason that Alberta's oil wealth shouldn't be put to use improving a multitude of other industries across Canada. We will only ever be as strong as our weakest link, and the oil won't last forever, so we better put the revenue to good use.

Exactly. Manitoba is building Bipole III starting next year, and we've chosen to go long expensive way around the West side of the lakes. The distance from Flin Flon to Edmonton is 750KM. The distance from Flin Flon to Winnipeg is 630KM. I hope at some point there will be a way for us to sell clean hydro electric power to you guys. We can turn floods into money here. We could do it faster with some oil dollars.

[andyt]

peck420 peck420:

andyt andyt:

As far as the tax subsidy for the tar sands, I'm against that too. But, if there were some Albertans on this forum they would tell you exactly why they think that subsidy is a great idea - it ultimately flows to them in the form of increased economic activity and income to the Alberta govt so they don't have to pay GST. They love it. They're really making the same argument you are - lower oil prices artificially because then we can live it up. But it's a mugs game to do that.

For the record, I am Albertan (Edmontonian). And, I believe that the natural resources of this country, especially oil, hydro, uranium, potash, etc, belong to all Canadians.

I am Canadian first, Albertan second, Edmontonian after that.

There is absolutely no reason that Alberta's oil wealth shouldn't be put to use improving a multitude of other industries across Canada. We will only ever be as strong as our weakest link, and the oil won't last forever, so we better put the revenue to good use.

Very refreshing to meet an Albertan who thinks like you do. Go out and multiply, will ya.

I don't think we disagree on much. On a couple of points we may just be arguing past each other.

On min wage - raising it is not the ideal. I think it would be better if we reduced immigration and let worker shortages take care of it. But as we don't, I would like to see the wage set to the low income cutoff. In Vancouver (most expensive city in Canada) the LIC is $11.11 an hour. We just raised it here to $10.25 after letting it stagnate at $8 for years, so of course there was a huge outcry about how business was going to go broke. But I say raise it to 11.11 - it's not living in luxury, but enough to pay rent/food etc and have a little left over to maybe save up for more education or just go to the dentist or something. (Course basic dentistry should be covered under Medicare - probably save a lot down the road as bad teeth can cause all sorts of health problems including heart conditions).

And again, I"m not for any subsidies for oil. I'm not sure if raising corporate taxes is the best way to go after any windfall profits or maybe it's better to just tax that money when it flows to the execs and share holders by higher taxes on the rich and on capital gains. I don't agree with a flat tax at all. Someone who ears $1,000,000 and pays 30% tax still has $700,000 ie a ton of it. Someone who earns $100,000 only has $70,000. Still a decent living of course, but nothing out rageous. Let the $1,000,000 guy pay 50% - still gives him plenty more than the 100k guy.

[andyt]

peck420 peck420:

The subsidies should be stopped. 100% agreement.

Where are the corporations going to go? the oil ain't moving.

As for NAFTA, it is based on a 3 month average. If the Canadian government was at all interested in manipulating it they could. But, they already have it in a way that best suits them and their friends...

If it was me, I would jack the price of gas by $1-$2 / litre, then offer Canadian citizens a tax rebate on their personal income tax. We could maximize the profits on oil sold abroad and subsidise the citizen to pretty much what ever level we want.

Would it hurt in the short term? Maybe.

Would the US stop buying our oil? Maybe...too bad there is a pretty lengthy list of countries (none in NAFTA ) that would be willing to purchase it.

Well at the moment, we're pretty dependent on selling to the US unless we build that westcoast pipline. Which we should. But we should definitely tax that oil (not gas) as much as we can get away with, and use it to help out low and middle income people in other areas. The Norveskies somehow manage to get away with taxing oil at 50%, tho I believe they collect no royalties. They also own their own producing companies to some extent, so the profits stay with the govt. We could do way worse than emulating them in many things.

[peck420]

andyt andyt:

On min wage - raising it is not the ideal. I think it would be better if we reduced immigration and let worker shortages take care of it. But as we don't, I would like to see the wage set to the low income cutoff. In Vancouver (most expensive city in Canada) the LIC is $11.11 an hour. We just raised it here to $10.25 after letting it stagnate at $8 for years, so of course there was a huge outcry about how business was going to go broke. But I say raise it to 11.11 - it's not living in luxury, but enough to pay rent/food etc and have a little left over to maybe save up for more education or just go to the dentist or something. (Course basic dentistry should be covered under Medicare - probably save a lot down the road as bad teeth can cause all sorts of health problems including heart conditions).

It wouldn't be too hard, I imagine, to link minimum wages directly to cost of living. StatsCan already does the number crunching, and they are (IMHO) very impartial.

As for the education/healthcare, I don't see why having a completely (or atleast significantly higher percent) subsidised system could not be afforded to all Canadian citizens without increasing taxation by much. It would be more a matter of good fiscal responsibilty on our governments part.

Currently our government spends approx $3,900 / capita for health care...and we know that our current system has some serious inefficienies. I don't think the extra $1,000 I spend per year on the non covered stuff couldn't be squeezed in. Especially since that $1,000 would be closer to $750 if treated as a wholesale item, similar to medication.

There are 3 things that I think the federal government should be covering for all Canadians:

1)Health
2)Education
3)Security

We already have a good head start in 2 of those area, time to fix them all up to a good standard.

[peck420]

Curtman Curtman:

Exactly. Manitoba is building Bipole III starting next year, and we've chosen to go long expensive way around the West side of the lakes. The distance from Flin Flon to Edmonton is 750KM. The distance from Flin Flon to Winnipeg is 630KM. I hope at some point there will be a way for us to sell clean hydro electric power to you guys. We can turn floods into money here. We could do it faster with some oil dollars.

You would be amazed at how much flak I get from othe Albertan's when I insist that oil (both the product and the wealth) should flow east/west first, north/south second.

I think it is Alberta's duty to assist the rest of Canada while our times are good. Lest we forget the assistance we recieved in the past.

It blows my mind as to how many are still so upset about the NEP. Yes, it sucked. We survived, and if we could survive that, we can survive helping our family (ROC).

Complete side note:
You would also be amazed at how many Albertan's don't know the difference between spending your hard earned dollars and flaunting your 'by chance' wealth.

We did put a lot of hard work into developing our oil industry, so yes, we should be entitled to some of the wealth. But, it's not like we actually made the oil...that was pure chance.

[andyt]

You say these things out loud in Alberta? And haven't been lynched yet? We need to clone you, I think. Wait till the right wingers on this board get a hold of you.

[Thanos]

peck420 peck420:

For the record, I am Albertan (Edmontonian). And, I believe that the natural resources of this country, especially oil, hydro, uranium, potash, etc, belong to all Canadians.

I am Canadian first, Albertan second, Edmontonian after that.

There is absolutely no reason that Alberta's oil wealth shouldn't be put to use improving a multitude of other industries across Canada. We will only ever be as strong as our weakest link, and the oil won't last forever, so we better put the revenue to good use.

The constitution that Mr. Trudeau blatantly ignored when he used the NEP to destroy Alberta says otherwise. Resources and the management thereof belong to the provincial and territorial jurisdiction that they're found in, period.

Let me know when Quebec's finally going to send me a cheque for my cut of their hydro wealth. I really need a new iPod.

[EyeBrock]

Don't forget that Quebec own NFLD hydro profits too.....

[peck420]

Thanos Thanos:

The constitution that Mr. Trudeau blatantly ignored when he used the NEP to destroy Alberta says otherwise. Resources and the management thereof belong to the provincial and territorial jurisdiction that they're found in, period.

Constitutions can (and have) been changed to suit changing circumstances.

Canada's circumstances have changed, we need to change our Constitution (and Bill of Rights) accordingly. When our constitution was written, we did not have to face the level of globalization we do today. We are just too small of a population to think in terms of 3 million here, 12 million there. We need to think of 35 million here versus the billions out there. Even united, we will still face considerable challenges...why shoot ourselves in the foot before we even start?

$1:

Let me know when Quebec's finally going to send me a cheque for my cut of their hydro wealth. I really need a new iPod.

If I spent my life choosing my actions based only on how others have acted (reactionist), I would be, at best, a very small person.

I would rather lead unity, than follow pettiness.

[jason700]

peck420 peck420:

I would rather lead unity, than follow pettiness.

Love it.

[peck420]

Reply to Thanos.

I didn't think of this until after I responded the first time.

There is nothing in the Constitution that would prohibt Eddie (or his replacement) from lending money to other Provinces for large projects at marginal rates.

The only thing that has really stopped Canada from becoming a truely great nation is our incessant Provincial bickering.

I see less pettiness from my children than I do from our government officials. And that is very sad.

How much would it actually hurt Alberta to help each of the Provinces develop substantial in-Province industries?

Start with the biggest 'have not' and work our way up the list.

If our Provincial government got their heads out of their youhoo's we would have more money than your average Saudi. We could easily assist with developments across Canada. Just need to sell it as an investment, not as a loan.

Hell, it could all be run via the Heritage Trust Fund, and set a marginal rate...inflation + 0.5%. Would benefit everybody, and wouldn't hurt us in the least.

[DrCaleb]

1Peg 1Peg:

Vancouver: $1.37
Montreal: $1.36
Halifax: $1.33
Quebec City: $1.32
Toronto: $1.32
Hamilton: $1.31
Kitchener-Waterloo: $1.30
London: $1.30
Barrie: $1.29
Victoria: $1.29

I guess CTV doesn't want to tell it's viewers that gas in Edmonton is 1.14 per liter today in Edmonton.

Gas jumped in Edmonton too. It's $1.19/l most stations.

[PostFactum]

1,15 $ here.