[IamLib]

Yogi Yogi:

Serving coffee at timmies' should only be looked at as a 'stop-gap' job.

for up and rising doctors and tradespeople

$1:

Nothing more!

so a 10 yr McDonalds employee should not be allowed to apply for a Timmies opportunity?

$1:

But you are advocating that people should be able to make a career of such and we should be responsible to make sure that they get paid a comfortable living wage.

wow, so raising the min wage gets translated into "responsible to make sure that they get paid a comfortable living wage"?Actually I didnt get that from his messages.

$1:

People have a responsibility towards themselves.

we all know tat people of all income levels are not responsible. i think the word you were looking for was 'accountable'. Accountability generally doesnt apply to social policies and programs, as is the case with min wage policies

$1:

They can put in the extra effort in upgrading so that they can obtain better paying employment.

not every good human being belongs in a classroom. some belong in lumber camps, some belong in min wage jobs.

[andyt]

IamLib IamLib:

not every good human being belongs in a classroom. some belong in lumber camps, some belong in min wage jobs.

Even people who belong in min wage jobs deserve a living wage if they put in an honest effort. The Low Income Cutoff for Vancouver for a single person working full time is $11.11/hr and the minimum wage should be set to that. I don't think 11.11 is comfortable wage where you're living the life of Riley. Especially considering housing costs in Vancouver. There's still plenty of incentive to try to get a better job.

But there aren't better jobs available for all who want them, and those minimum wage jobs still need doing. What I see the rare time I walk into my local Timmies are mid aged Filipino women working there - likely with kids at home to support. I want us to stop importing so many immigrants to fill these jobs, so there will be more competition from employers for workers and maybe we wouldn't need a minimum wage at all. Immigration is just a subsidy to employers to pay poor wages.

Poverty causes so much damage to our society, and costs us so much, it's in our self interest to do our best to eliminate it.

[BeaverFever]

Yogi -

What you are missing is that:

1) The only reason "a decent education" pays well is because it is relatively scarce. If all those miniumum wage workers took your advice and went back to school, University graduates would be a dime a dozen, and their jobs would still pay SQUAT.

2)You say that the so-called "McJobs" aren't meant to be long-term jobs but only temp jobs for students, bored housewives and seniors, etc. who don't mind the low wages. But the truth that you overlook is that there are relative few people looking for this type of work and our economy is now designed to have so many McJobs that there are not enough of these kind of people to fill them. There are far more people with real needs requiring real income, who can only get the McJobs because we have a system that forces people into these roles. My point is that all the McDonalds, Tim Hortons, Walmarts etc. in the country that you probably enjoy so much could not function if they only relied on students, grannies etc. The only way YOU can enjoy these is if people needing good jobs are forced into these jobs at low wages out of desperations.

I know that a standard (non)response to this post will probably something like reiterating the "get an education" mantra, as a solution to poverty, but thats like teling the passengers of the Titanic that getting to a lifeboat early is a solution to the fact that there aren't enough lifeboats to keep everyone from drowning. In otherwords, the "get an education" advise only works as advise to an individual on how to best escape a system that sets large numbers of people up for failre, but it doesn't do anything to address the problem that large numbers of people are failing. Also, education is not as easily accessible as many people think. Even though the your tax dollars pay bout 2/3 of the costs, the remaining $5 or $6 k a year + cost of living is out of reach for many people, even with student loans. Personally, I think a university education is overrated for most entry-level jobs anyway, but I see that used alot by employers as a way to "screen out the riff-raff".

[Yogi]

IamLib IamLib:

Yogi Yogi:

Serving coffee at timmies' should only be looked at as a 'stop-gap' job.

for up and rising doctors and tradespeople

Stedents and anyone else entering the work-world

$1:

Nothing more!

so a 10 yr McDonalds employee should not be allowed to apply for a Timmies opportunity?

Unless they own the place, why would anyone still be working at a McChoke and Puke for 10 years!

$1:

But you are advocating that people should be able to make a career of such and we should be responsible to make sure that they get paid a comfortable living wage.

wow, so raising the min wage gets translated into "responsible to make sure that they get paid a comfortable living wage"?Actually I didnt get that from his messages.

Min wage is 'justification for higher education'!

$1:

People have a responsibility towards themselves.

we all know tat people of all income levels are not responsible. i think the word you were looking for was 'accountable'. Accountability generally doesnt apply to social policies and programs, as is the case with min wage policies

I know exactly what I said, and I know exactly what I meant. And so did you. As you noted in your reply^!

$1:

They can put in the extra effort in upgrading so that they can obtain better paying employment.

not every good human being belongs in a classroom. some belong in lumber camps, some belong in min wage jobs.

'Sitting in a classroom' isn't always a requirement to obtain further training and upgrading.Other than retired or mentally deficient people' no one 'belongs' in a minimum wage job. Min wage should be used for what it is 'a stepping stone'.

[andyt]

Yogi Yogi:

'Sitting in a classroom' isn't always a requirement to obtain further training and upgrading.Other than retired or mentally deficient people' no one 'belongs' in a minimum wage job. Min wage should be used for what it is 'a stepping stone'.

Read Beavers excellent response to this. It's not just about minimum wage. A favorite excuse by the Liberals was always that few people were working at minimum wage when it was $8. But many more people were working at wages just above that, 9 or 10 dollars. 13% of British Columbians are working at $10 or less. That's a lot of people - imagine if they really did all upgrade and started competing for better jobs. And who would then do those 13% of jobs that do pay that low? According to the research I posted earlier, raising the minimum wage puts upward pressure on jobs paying up to 25% more than the minimum wage. So for people earning up to $12 an hour. That's a good thing, raises the income of the working poor, alleviates all kinds of social problems and increases the tax revenues of the govt.

[Yogi]

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/canada/ ... 05261.html

We certainly could make a serious dent in what you are saying isn't possible andy.

These people are already sucking on the public tit so why not get something out of them in return? Their basic necessities are already covered so working at min wage would enable them to learn how to integrate with Canadian society as well as to fill the 'need for min wage workers' and at the same time learn that 'Canada indeed can be the land of opportunity' instead of them seeing Canada as 'the golden goose just waiting for them to fuck'!

[andyt]

I'm not clear what We certainly could make a serious dent in what you are saying isn't possible andy. means.

I don't see what Namibians have to do with this discussion. I think you're trying to introduce a red herring. I'm talking about Canadians. And as you know, I'm against large scale immigration. That would also put upward pressure on pay, not just for low income but middle class as well.

[BeaverFever]

How about employing them )?

I dont think many people would have qualms about allowing refugees to find employment at a wage that is appropriate to their skill level (some refugees are highly skilled/educated) as long as they are paid at rates equal to or above whatever the prevailing minimum wage is (otherwise employers will find them more attractive to hire than Canadians). But the subject's really neither here nor there in this conversation.

[BeaverFever]

Also, just because you came here through a human smuggler, doesn't necessarily mean you're not a bona-fide refugee; refugees and qualified migrants will often hire smugglers out of desparation or ignorance.

[andyt]

Refugees are allowed to work in Canada. Since many don't speak a word of English/French and come from poor countries with little education, good luck with that for most of them - at last initially.

But the people Yogi is talking about seem to be phony refugees. We need to tighten up or refugee system so that people like that are identified and shipped back home ASAP.

I don't see what refugees, legitimate or otherwise, has to do with a discussion about minimum wage laws.

[Yogi]

andyt andyt:

I'm not clear what We certainly could make a serious dent in what you are saying isn't possible andy. means.

I don't see what Namibians have to do with this discussion. I think you're trying to introduce a red herring. I'm talking about Canadians. And as you know, I'm against large scale immigration. That would also put upward pressure on pay, not just for low income but middle class as well.

Not meant as a 'red herring' at all. Just as a viable alternative to the existing problem of so many 'Canadians' feeling 'no way out of min wage job situations.
We are, as this article points out, already paying these peoples -as well as all the other refugees, regardless of how they got here-basic necessities. Why not move them into the 'McJobs' at min wage which is put into a trust' for them. Once they have been reviewed and granted, or refused status then their wages are released to them to help them get 'on their way'. Meanwhile, those unfortunate 'Canadians' who were previously 'stuck in min wage jobs' are attending school-training-upgrading for better paying positions, careers with future. Yes, we pay for their education and basic necessities as well, as long as they stick with the program. Win. Win. Win!

[andyt]

Yogi Yogi:

andyt andyt:

I'm not clear what We certainly could make a serious dent in what you are saying isn't possible andy. means.

I don't see what Namibians have to do with this discussion. I think you're trying to introduce a red herring. I'm talking about Canadians. And as you know, I'm against large scale immigration. That would also put upward pressure on pay, not just for low income but middle class as well.

Not meant as a 'red herring' at all. Just as a viable alternative to the existing problem of so many 'Canadians' feeling 'no way out of min wage job situations.
We are, as this article points out, already paying these peoples -as well as all the other refugees, regardless of how they got here-basic necessities. Why not move them into the 'McJobs' at min wage which is put into a trust' for them. Once they have been reviewed and granted, or refused status then their wages are released to them to help them get 'on their way'. Meanwhile, those unfortunate 'Canadians' who were previously 'stuck in min wage jobs' are attending school-training-upgrading for better paying positions, careers with future. Yes, we pay for their education and basic necessities as well, as long as they stick with the program. Win. Win. Win!

Ok, I can agree with part of that. I don't think your solution will address the whole problem, and some Canadians working min wage jobs don't really have the ability to do much else. They should still be paid a living wage.

But, I've been on about the idea of better training in Canada as much as income inequality. It makes no sense to me that we import people trained in other countries rather than training our own. Not only does it fuck over Canadians, but also the, usually poorer, country we're importing trained people from.

I think a lot of these problems could be solved by drastically cutting back immigration and being much tougher in who we accept as genuine refugees.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Good thread, I read the whole thing through.

Just one statistic is that circa 2007 some 23% of Canadian workers earned $12 an hour or less. This is partly because employment in the regions is so anemic. I think going forward there's some hope as there will be growth in good jobs,the labour force will be shrinking because of the aging thing, people will move to jobs and the retirement of the baby boomers will open up opportunity. In addition it'd help to get immigration right. It may take time, years, but Canadian youth should be able to work their way into better jobs. This is what happened in the 1980's and 1990's to the back half of the baby boomers.

[IamLib]

imo, better training and telling your kids to only work mcdonalds long enough to go to school are good ideas. I dont scoff at them.

However, it is not reasonable to assume that we can make this min wage problem go away by providing training to long term employees so they can leave the min wage job. That is too big of a task to be realistic. Too many ways that a training initiative like that would fail.

Furthermore, I doubt that it could be executed without a court case from McDonalds or Walmart. Do we have the right regulate this problem by pulling their workers off the job to receive training that will lead to them resigning to work elsewhere? I don't think so. Walmart and McDonald rely on their long term employees to ease the pressure of continually training a new batch of 'pit stoppers'.

[IamLib]

You have to decide what is the outcome that you are trying to acomplish.

If the outcome is to get an extra 50cents into the pockets of long term min wage employees, then the same advice that is good for your kids isn't a good match to the problem.