CKA Forums
Login 
canadian forums
bottom
 
 
Canadian Forums

Author Topic Options
Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15681
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:37 am
 


martin14 martin14:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Just for the record, last time around the US didn't exactly stay neutral. We unofficially sided with the UK and


I wonder if the Brits are smart enough to realize they may not get
that 'unofficial' help this time round ?


I think it's pretty loud and clear Martin!


Offline
Forum Super Elite
Forum Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 2664
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:58 am
 


Judging from the past several wars, (Vietnam, 2nd gulf war, Falklands, Afghanistan), western powers have not been as impressive at warfare as the media keeps trumpeting. Especially when they attempt to occupy a nation.

Withdrawal in Vietnam, Easily toppled Saddam's Bathist army (which actually didn't put up any fight at all), only to be stifled by the Mehdi Army which won several battles, and Afghanistan where the Taliban is proving to be more than just a challenge.

Even Israel lost its mettle against Hezbollah in 2006, as they were held to a draw against an invisible paramilitary organization.

The view that the west and its allies as untouchable has just taken a massive hit over the past several years. Perhaps on the level it took just before decolonization when colonial subjects realized Europeans were not invincible after seeing them die on the battlefields for 6 years.

Perhaps Argentina has smelled blood. Again. Pity for them fighting a modern war against Britain, with or without support from the USA won’t bode well for them.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15681
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:36 am
 


CommanderSock CommanderSock:
Judging from the past several wars, (Vietnam, 2nd gulf war, Falklands, Afghanistan), western powers have not been as impressive at warfare as the media keeps trumpeting. Especially when they attempt to occupy a nation.

Withdrawal in Vietnam, Easily toppled Saddam's Bathist army (which actually didn't put up any fight at all), only to be stifled by the Mehdi Army which won several battles, and Afghanistan where the Taliban is proving to be more than just a challenge.

Even Israel lost its mettle against Hezbollah in 2006, as they were held to a draw against an invisible paramilitary organization.

The view that the west and its allies as untouchable has just taken a massive hit over the past several years. Perhaps on the level it took just before decolonization when colonial subjects realized Europeans were not invincible after seeing them die on the battlefields for 6 years.

Perhaps Argentina has smelled blood. Again. Pity for them fighting a modern war against Britain, with or without support from the USA won’t bode well for them.


The western nations can fight and beat any other nation. What they have problems doing in the modern era is filling the vacuum they have created with a body that can keep order in a stone-age society.

I have no idea why you included the Falklands as it isn't an example of what you are trying to prove.

That aside, Western democracies in a post colonial era are not good at occupying another country. They have replaced dogmatic, oppressive, facist regimes with military units that are more in jeopardy from their domestic media than the insurgents in the occupied country. Our media leaps on the slightest alleged mistreatment of those trying to kill our troops.

The US Army in Iraq couldn't use the methods of control that Iraqi people were used to. Pulling people out of their houses and shooting them was frowned on by their political masters. They went in there to liberate, not re-shackle. This was seen by the Baathist’s still left alive as weakness and was duly exploited as such.

Just like we can't go into Afghanistan and kill suspected Taliban (and we do know who they are) , we just don't do things that way because we are nice civilised chaps.

We are good at a conventional war and thrashing an enemy in the field but the days of the British Raj or USMC committing what is now seen as war crimes are over.

Isn’t that the way you guys want it?


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Montreal Canadiens
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 33691
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:47 pm
 


It's not the way I want it, its a fucking stupid policy.


Offline
Forum Super Elite
Forum Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 2664
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:52 pm
 


$1:
We are good at a conventional war and thrashing an enemy in the field but the days of the British Raj or USMC committing what is now seen as war crimes are over.

Isn’t that the way you guys want it?



I'm super busy, wanted to reserve this spot. I'll write up a detailed reply later on.

However it's far more than the excuse of "we can't murder your peasants so we lose wars”. I think it's far more than that. Capabilities are certainly being questioned.

When the Africans started fighting for their independence, torture and summary executions was still quite a common tool to placate insurgencies. Yet for all their efforts, the military victories, the large scale killings, the Colonial powers kept loosening their grip.

Some, such as Algeria, Mozambique, and Angola broke out into full scale civil wars that required colonial powers to deploy large divisions to said colonies.

Only 100 years before, these people were throwing spears and fighting with swords. How did this happen? I believe it was the transfer of technology. The power balance was no longer as slanted. The creation of the AK-47 was a big factor. International weapons dealers too.

Ultimately if a nation today didn't want to be occupied, grass roots uprisings are more likely to be successful, and if not, at least destructive enough to create and ungovernable territory that would force a rethink by the colonials.

Now, keep in mind western nations are representative of their tribal/and national linguistic origins, while former colonies, and even non colonies through migration and other circumstances are more heterogeneous and the leadership is not inclusive of all groups (Ethiopia is a great example). That's where the power vacuum is created.

But if the west was indeed powerful enough, it should have successfully not only crushed the Mau Mau rebellion, but also re-imposed order in Kenya. Yet it failed to do so. It killed thousands, tortured, detained, and who knows what else. But it failed to re-impose order. The tribal chiefs leading the rebellion went straight back in the bush (as they do today against some of their own despotic leaders) and kept fighting a guerilla war, stifling the economies and creating never ending wars of attrition. Britain either didn't seem to have the power to cope, or simply decided to say fuck it. France didn't have the power to cope with Algeria. And Portugal actually lost the war in Angola altogether as opposed to ceding to demands instead and saving some face.


Historians today claim that the west simply didn't care to keep their colonial possessions due to WW2 costs. But was that really the case? If they didn't care why did so many fight wars well after WW2 to keep them? And they still failed to do so?!

Perhaps they are not as powerful and almighty as they thought they were. Perhaps the speedy withdrawal in the 60s and 70s from other colonies peacefully was to prevent inevitable and likely unwinnable wars.

Remember, attacking and toppling a government is not the same as occupying and holding a nation. When Napoleon invaded Russia, he took Moscow, and yet the scope of the impending disaster didn't dawn on the French until withdrawal began. Historians are still debating whether he was surprised that the Russian Tsar didn't accept defeat because his capital fell. He did not play by the traditional European "rules".

This is very similar to the end of colonialism, and the many wars western powers have fought since. They were generally not impressive. Human rights or not.

Sorry, a bit long winded. I'll add more when I'm not in a boring meeting full of douchebebags (myself included :)). And typing on a blackberry is like trying to stick each finger in multiple assholes all next to each other.


Offline
CKA Elite
CKA Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 4235
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:52 pm
 


In my view its goes boils down to basic primal instict. When someone breaks into your house and threatens your house, your home, your family you will fight tooth and nail and until your very last breath to defend them. The intruder on the other hand will flee after getting a socked a few times as its just not worth it.

And I also agree with sock the past aswell as the current record is indeed not very good. The british left Iraq after invading it twice in less than one century. As well as the US or so it claims, very soon after really having achieved nothing other than fattening the pockets of the war profiteers and leaving the country in a mess.

As for the Afghanistan, new natural resources having been discovered there recently could mean the conflict will go on for a long time, although the brits are showing some signs they want to leave. And maybe it will live up to its old nick name The Graveyard of Empires.

I think the wisest choice ever made by Canada was not go to war in Iraq with the US. A move which really saved Canada's reputation globally, otherwise would be just considered one of US's sidekick like the UK.


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
 Montreal Canadiens


GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 6584
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:26 pm
 


Argentina is not under the control of a dictatorship now. I don't think there will be a new crisis.


Offline
CKA Elite
CKA Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 4235
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:37 pm
 


Just a little pissing contest to see whose got the biggest dong !


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15681
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:38 pm
 


CommanderSock CommanderSock:
$1:
We are good at a conventional war and thrashing an enemy in the field but the days of the British Raj or USMC committing what is now seen as war crimes are over.

Isn’t that the way you guys want it?



I'm super busy, wanted to reserve this spot. I'll write up a detailed reply later on.

However it's far more than the excuse of "we can't murder your peasants so we lose wars”. I think it's far more than that. Capabilities are certainly being questioned.

When the Africans started fighting for their independence, torture and summary executions was still quite a common tool to placate insurgencies. Yet for all their efforts, the military victories, the large scale killings, the Colonial powers kept loosening their grip.

Some, such as Algeria, Mozambique, and Angola broke out into full scale civil wars that required colonial powers to deploy large divisions to said colonies.

Only 100 years before, these people were throwing spears and fighting with swords. How did this happen? I believe it was the transfer of technology. The power balance was no longer as slanted. The creation of the AK-47 was a big factor. International weapons dealers too.

Ultimately if a nation today didn't want to be occupied, grass roots uprisings are more likely to be successful, and if not, at least destructive enough to create and ungovernable territory that would force a rethink by the colonials.

Now, keep in mind western nations are representative of their tribal/and national linguistic origins, while former colonies, and even non colonies through migration and other circumstances are more heterogeneous and the leadership is not inclusive of all groups (Ethiopia is a great example). That's where the power vacuum is created.

But if the west was indeed powerful enough, it should have successfully not only crushed the Mau Mau rebellion, but also re-imposed order in Kenya. Yet it failed to do so. It killed thousands, tortured, detained, and who knows what else. But it failed to re-impose order. The tribal chiefs leading the rebellion went straight back in the bush (as they do today against some of their own despotic leaders) and kept fighting a guerilla war, stifling the economies and creating never ending wars of attrition. Britain either didn't seem to have the power to cope, or simply decided to say fuck it. France didn't have the power to cope with Algeria. And Portugal actually lost the war in Angola altogether as opposed to ceding to demands instead and saving some face.


Historians today claim that the west simply didn't care to keep their colonial possessions due to WW2 costs. But was that really the case? If they didn't care why did so many fight wars well after WW2 to keep them? And they still failed to do so?!

Perhaps they are not as powerful and almighty as they thought they were. Perhaps the speedy withdrawal in the 60s and 70s from other colonies peacefully was to prevent inevitable and likely unwinnable wars.

Remember, attacking and toppling a government is not the same as occupying and holding a nation. When Napoleon invaded Russia, he took Moscow, and yet the scope of the impending disaster didn't dawn on the French until withdrawal began. Historians are still debating whether he was surprised that the Russian Tsar didn't accept defeat because his capital fell. He did not play by the traditional European "rules".

This is very similar to the end of colonialism, and the many wars western powers have fought since. They were generally not impressive. Human rights or not.

Sorry, a bit long winded. I'll add more when I'm not in a boring meeting full of douchebebags (myself included :)). And typing on a blackberry is like trying to stick each finger in multiple assholes all next to each other.



The end of colonialism happened when the Brits sussed out that it was costing more to hold on to it's Empire than they were getting back in return.

The Victorians turned the Empire from capitalism with guns into a kind of 'white mans burden' crusade. Bad move. Principles and making cash seldom mix well.

The whole idea of the Empire was trade and profit. Once those profits were outweighed by the costs of the Imperial Garrison/Royal Navy, the end was nigh.
It’s peak was before the Great War and after that, the Brits lost the plot and it was all downhill from there. The protracted withdrawal from Empire was a waste in both manpower and resources and those countries slipped pretty quickly into despotic states and the social stone age once the Brits left. The Brits should have just fucked off in 1918 when the going was good.

People forget that the Empire was just an accepted way of doing business prior to the 20th century. After that, you could make way more money by manufacturing and corporate trade etc, just like we all do now. Trying to subjugate nations by force never works that well, costs too much and the invader always leaves eventually.


Offline
CKA Elite
CKA Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 4235
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:49 pm
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Trying to subjugate nations by force never works that well, costs too much and the invader always leaves eventually.


One of the most smartest thing you've ever said brock R=UP


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15681
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:13 pm
 


Why thank you DD. It's in all the history books apparently.


Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Previous  1  2  3  4  5



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests




 
     
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © Canadaka.net. Powered by © phpBB.