[ShepherdsDog]

IlovUSandCanada IlovUSandCanada:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

The US didn't assist(defend is the wrong choice of words) Israel until much later in its history. I've pointed it out before that it was initially Russia and its allies that supplied Israel with its limited armaments, as they thought of the Israelis as fellow socialists.

Most of those who founded the modern state of Israel were extremely secular, not religious, as some of the uninformed would have people think. The UK(Ironically it was Disraeli and the British who proposed rebuilding a Jewish state in the area), supplied and trained(the UK supplied most of the officer corps)the Arab Legion in the beginning. The United States was prepared to sell write off Israel to the Russians during the Suez Crisis of 1956.

The United States only extended military aid to Israel to counter the Russians courting Nasser and other Arab leaders. It wasn't out of some love of the Jews, although there was a fair bit of lobbying by Jewish Americans. Israel learned the hard way that it couldn't depend on anyone for its survival, except itself, and that's why it developed it own nuclear program. Fairweather friends are only fie until the going gets tough. As for modern weaponry, Israel buys some from the US as does Taiwan, but unlike many other states, it doesn't require outside assistance/intervention. Israel produces its own armament and warriors that are some of the world's best. Israel is no ones bitch and the idea that the Jews can be pushed into the sea is laughable at best. They'd likely say, let it stick in your craw and choke on it.

Well, true I doubt they could be pushed into the sea, but it would be a nice experiment to see what they could do against an enormous Arab coalition wishing to exterminate them and the Palestinians inside Israel welcoming the invaders in with open arms.

And what you are saying about Israel's history is nice, if you are trying to prove how well-read you are, but I am speaking of current events. The U.S sends Israel massive amounts of monetary and foreign aid and for what? It seems the most unequal alliance in history. We endanger our relations with the middle-east to ASSIST a state which does nearly nothing of direct benefit to us!

Dead terrorists benefit everyone. They also have an extensive intelligence gathering network, that provides a lot of hard information on terrorist organizations that are a threat to everyone. This was one of the short fallings of the American security services prior to 9/11, relying too much on toys and not enough on the people with their ears to the ground.

[commanderkai]

IlovUSandCanada IlovUSandCanada:

True, the Israelies have done brilliantly, but may I respond in turn by asking you to please see Napoleon, Henry V of England, the British Empire, the Russian Empire, the Spanish Empire, the French Empire, the Chinese Empire etc ... Every winning streak runs dry.

But Israel isn't an empire, and Israel doesn't conquer like past empires do. All of the empires of the past commonly overstretched their military and logistical reach, while having weaker resolve on the homefront to put up with the sacrifices and resources to maintain said empire. Winning streaks do run dry, but at the same time, superior weaponry and training, as well as battling for your homes (as Israel would be in another war against the neighboring Arab states), provides Israel with advantages greater than math nor logic can calculate.

[IlovUSandCanada]

commanderkai commanderkai:

But Israel isn't an empire, and Israel doesn't conquer like past empires do. All of the empires of the past commonly overstretched their military and logistical reach, while having weaker resolve on the homefront to put up with the sacrifices and resources to maintain said empire. Winning streaks do run dry, but at the same time, superior weaponry and training, as well as battling for your homes (as Israel would be in another war against the neighboring Arab states), provides Israel with advantages greater than math nor logic can calculate.

True, true. But even you just admitted you can't calculate it. Besides as the U.S is certainly Israel's strongest ally, and (by it's definition as an ally) threatens anyone who wishes to attack Israel you can never quite take the United States out of any hypothetical Israeli war. With hostile enemies on literal all sides, Israel will probably do brilliantly for a while with their mass amount of weapons and wonderful military but what about a decade of constant warfare with enemies who have between them far more money, soldiers, people and resources? Could Israel survive say a 10 year straight war without ANY U.S direct or indirect intervention? I think not.

[IlovUSandCanada]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Dead terrorists benefit everyone. They also have an extensive intelligence gathering network, that provides a lot of hard information on terrorist organizations that are a threat to everyone. This was one of the short fallings of the American security services prior to 9/11, relying too much on toys and not enough on the people with their ears to the ground.

WHAT? Dead terrorists benefit everyone! You MUST be joking! I had no idea!

Seriously though, implying that the United States doesn't have an extensive intelligence network is like implying that Canada lacks freshwater sources. Simply ludicrous. It may not be efficient, but it certainly is extensive. And besides an enormous, well-equipped, expensive military scarcely counts as "Toys".

[ShepherdsDog]

It was an admission by the American government. They fucked up and didn't utilize their human intelligence sources(agents). Their agencies also didn't share information because of inter departamental rivalries. This isn't foiler shit, it was all part of the findings of the American government. Toys can never replace a good agent and they admitted as much. You need to read a bit more.
http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/wall.pdf

[commanderkai]

IlovUSandCanada IlovUSandCanada:

True, true. But even you just admitted you can't calculate it.

Of course you can't. Humans, are, by in their nature, unpredictable. One person, normal as you think he or she can be, can tomorrow go around and start killing people from a clock tower (or the trunk of a car, like the Washington snipers from a few years back).

$1:

Besides as the U.S is certainly Israel's strongest ally, and (by it's definition as an ally) threatens anyone who wishes to attack Israel you can never quite take the United States out of any hypothetical Israeli war.

Yes and no. The United States is Israel's strongest ally, but at the same time the United States never directly entered combat operations against the Arab states. They helped train the Israelis a bit, and certainly helped with supplying munitions, but the Soviets gave the same support to the Arabs (if not more so, considering how the USSR had "military observers" operating in Cuba and Vietnam during those conflicts.)

Also, as people have stated, Israel is not a big fan of being wholly dependent on a single state for protection. Considering how they have been backstabbed historically, they play their cards so they have a number of friends ready in case the United States tries to screw them over. Think about it. Israel has made deals with Turkey and China, and other states, in case the United States ultimately leaves them in the wind. If those potential friends do not help, they have three hundred nuclear weapons.

$1:

With hostile enemies on literal all sides, Israel will probably do brilliantly for a while with their mass amount of weapons and wonderful military but what about a decade of constant warfare with enemies who have between them far more money, soldiers, people and resources? Could Israel survive say a 10 year straight war without ANY U.S direct or indirect intervention? I think not.

Hypothetically they can, depending on how well they conduct the first few days or weeks of the war. Israel, as you said, cannot survive 10 years because they don't have the massive manpower nor the territory to sacrifice in a conflict. That's why they have such a powerful intelligence agency to keep an eye on everybody in the region, and a military prepared to engage any target, potential or real. If the United States abandons them, they'll have a few extra cards left in their sleeves, ranging from making a few sweet deals of trading technology for munitions with China, to putting off some of the Arab states against one another.

[ShepherdsDog]

Wars don't last 10 yrs. nowadays so the scenario is ridiculous to begin with.

[IlovUSandCanada]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Wars don't last 10 yrs. nowadays so the scenario is ridiculous to begin with.

Um, sorry to burst your bubble Mr. Know-it-All but the Iraq war has lasted 7 years, who could say another 3 is out of the question? Especially as the Israelis are likely to put up a long and arduous fight against this imaginary Arab coalition.

[IlovUSandCanada]

commanderkai commanderkai:

IlovUSandCanada IlovUSandCanada:

True, true. But even you just admitted you can't calculate it.

Of course you can't. Humans, are, by in their nature, unpredictable. One person, normal as you think he or she can be, can tomorrow go around and start killing people from a clock tower (or the trunk of a car, like the Washington snipers from a few years back).

$1:

Besides as the U.S is certainly Israel's strongest ally, and (by it's definition as an ally) threatens anyone who wishes to attack Israel you can never quite take the United States out of any hypothetical Israeli war.

Yes and no. The United States is Israel's strongest ally, but at the same time the United States never directly entered combat operations against the Arab states. They helped train the Israelis a bit, and certainly helped with supplying munitions, but the Soviets gave the same support to the Arabs (if not more so, considering how the USSR had "military observers" operating in Cuba and Vietnam during those conflicts.)

Also, as people have stated, Israel is not a big fan of being wholly dependent on a single state for protection. Considering how they have been backstabbed historically, they play their cards so they have a number of friends ready in case the United States tries to screw them over. Think about it. Israel has made deals with Turkey and China, and other states, in case the United States ultimately leaves them in the wind. If those potential friends do not help, they have three hundred nuclear weapons.

$1:

With hostile enemies on literal all sides, Israel will probably do brilliantly for a while with their mass amount of weapons and wonderful military but what about a decade of constant warfare with enemies who have between them far more money, soldiers, people and resources? Could Israel survive say a 10 year straight war without ANY U.S direct or indirect intervention? I think not.

Hypothetically they can, depending on how well they conduct the first few days or weeks of the war. Israel, as you said, cannot survive 10 years because they don't have the massive manpower nor the territory to sacrifice in a conflict. That's why they have such a powerful intelligence agency to keep an eye on everybody in the region, and a military prepared to engage any target, potential or real. If the United States abandons them, they'll have a few extra cards left in their sleeves, ranging from making a few sweet deals of trading technology for munitions with China, to putting off some of the Arab states against one another.

I can't imagine China getting involved. They seem very pre-occupied with their domestic problems and use their military to oppress their own population, not those of foreign countries. And Turkey is itself a muslim country, it is conceivable that they would simply ditch Israel rather than face fellow Muslims over a tiny, resourceless Jewish nation.

[commanderkai]

IlovUSandCanada IlovUSandCanada:

Um, sorry to burst your bubble Mr. Know-it-All but the Iraq war has lasted 7 years, who could say another 3 is out of the question? Especially as the Israelis are likely to put up a long and arduous fight against this imaginary Arab coalition.

The Iraq War didn't last 7 years. Conventional fighting was over before the end of summer 2003. Israel isn't going to attempt to occupy Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc, unlike how the Americans occupied Iraq. Big, big difference. A decade long, conventional war is HUGELY unlikely, considering the incompetence of Arab military forces, and the well trained, well equipped, and very powerful Israeli military. (This is also discounting nuclear weapons)

$1:

I can't imagine China getting involved. They seem very pre-occupied with their domestic problems and use their military to oppress their own population, not those of foreign countries. And Turkey is itself a muslim country, it is conceivable that they would simply ditch Israel rather than face fellow Muslims over a tiny, resourceless Jewish nation.

I'm not saying China is going to airlift a million soldiers to Israel, but it's theoretically possible China can move munitions in exchange for Israeli technology or training in the future. You're making a huge mistake here. The United States never provided direct, military support for Israel, but rather airlifted munitions (much like what the USSR did) when their ammunition started running low. Both sides underestimated how easily expended munitions are in open, conventional warfare. I don't think Israel will forget said lesson.

But, if, hypothetically, the United States abandons Israel, Israel will find another country to buy tank shells, ammunition, bombs, and other munitions from.

[IlovUSandCanada]

commanderkai commanderkai:

IlovUSandCanada IlovUSandCanada:

Um, sorry to burst your bubble Mr. Know-it-All but the Iraq war has lasted 7 years, who could say another 3 is out of the question? Especially as the Israelis are likely to put up a long and arduous fight against this imaginary Arab coalition.

The Iraq War didn't last 7 years. Conventional fighting was over before the end of summer 2003. Israel isn't going to attempt to occupy Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc, unlike how the Americans occupied Iraq. Big, big difference. A decade long, conventional war is HUGELY unlikely, considering the incompetence of Arab military forces, and the well trained, well equipped, and very powerful Israeli military. (This is also discounting nuclear weapons)

$1:

I can't imagine China getting involved. They seem very pre-occupied with their domestic problems and use their military to oppress their own population, not those of foreign countries. And Turkey is itself a muslim country, it is conceivable that they would simply ditch Israel rather than face fellow Muslims over a tiny, resourceless Jewish nation.

I'm not saying China is going to airlift a million soldiers to Israel, but it's theoretically possible China can move munitions in exchange for Israeli technology or training in the future. You're making a huge mistake here. The United States never provided direct, military support for Israel, but rather airlifted munitions (much like what the USSR did) when their ammunition started running low. Both sides underestimated how easily expended munitions are in open, conventional warfare. I don't think Israel will forget said lesson.

But, if, hypothetically, the United States abandons Israel, Israel will find another country to buy tank shells, ammunition, bombs, and other munitions from.

I did not mean that Israel would try to occupy the Arab countries, I meant vice versa. And also the U.S has been pouring foreign aid into Israel like it's going out of style.

[commanderkai]

IlovUSandCanada IlovUSandCanada:

I did not mean that Israel would try to occupy the Arab countries,I meant vice versa.

Then Israel won't be fighting a 10 year war. As hard as this might be for you to understand, but Israel is a hugely adept at combat, especially against the Arab armies. First, before you forget, Israel would commit a pre-emptive strike against the Arabs before any army came close to mobilizing against them (Like the Six Day War), and considering how Syria would need to cross through the Golan Heights (aka, huge pain in the ass), Egypt needing to cut through desert to reach inhabited Israeli positions, and Jordan needing to cut through the densely populated West Bank, all three of its neighbors that are potential threats have disadvantages, in case they do have the element of surprise (like they built their army out of Mirage Tanks from Red Alert 2).

And, if, somehow, that Israel wasn't able to pound Egypt, Jordan, and Syria into submission early on, 300 nukes would be detonating across the Middle East.

$1:

And also the U.S has been pouring foreign aid into Israel like it's going out of style.

But the United States sends a huge deal of foreign aid to Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia. All countries within the conflict will be hugely weakened by removal of US aid from the region. Like I said, though, Israel has contingency plans in case situations like this ever occur. They already courted China, and they can certainly court another country (I'll toss out Poland) who has a large military-industrial complex, and a willingness to sell.