[ShepherdsDog]

Well if we can't penalize someone for handing in their work late, how about bonus marks for those who complete their essays/projects early and on time. Companies usually receive a bonus for completing projects early, but then again, they are usually penalized if they are late....but teaching kids this is a no no now.

[Mustang1]

Lemmy Lemmy:

IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. There are lots of courses that don't even have final exams or anything resembling a culminating activity. Most phys-ed courses are prefect examples.

Just because it happens, doesn't render it correct or proper assessment/evauation policy.

I quoted the Ministry document - that's the achievement reporting - many courses have a 70/30 split. Most Phys-ed courses meet 70/30.

$1:

Sure they can. They can also fail for not doing it. It depends on the course, the teacher and the assignment.

Nope. A student can fail an essay, even in 4U and pass the course. If a student doesn't complete a component of the course, that doesn't mean they necessary fail. It doesn't matter if it's an essay in a 4U or test in Math. The Ministry is quite clear.

$1:

Well, we may be missing some important, pertinent Ministry document, but I'm sorry, you're patently wrong if you believe that 70/30 is a hard-fast rule in practice, and likelwise, that students can't fail courses on the basis of "credit jepardizing assisemments" being omitted.

Actually, i'm not sure i'm missing a pertinent document (but i'd certainly be interested in seeing it). The Ministry document that i've referenced is quite clear,

"A final grade is recorded for every course, and a credit is granted and recorded for every
course in which the student’s grade is 50% or higher. The final grade for each course in
Grades 9–12 will be determined as follows:
• Seventy per cent of the grade will be based on evaluations conducted throughout the course.
This portion of the grade should reflect the student’s most consistent level of achievement
throughout the course, although special consideration should be given to more recent
evidence of achievement.
• Thirty per cent of the grade will be based on a final evaluation in the form of an examination,
performance, essay, and/or other method of evaluation suitable to the course content
and administered towards the end of the course."

Please show me where these "credit jepardizing assisemments" are found. Sorry, but the notion that students can fail courses on the basis of "credit jepardizing assisemments" is patently false.

[Lemmy]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Nope. A student can fail an essay, even in 4U and pass the course. If a student doesn't complete a component of the course, that doesn't mean they necessary fail. It doesn't matter if it's an essay in a 4U or test in Math. The Ministry is quite clear.

I never said they necessarily fail. I say they could, and do.

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Please show me where these "credit jepardizing assisemments" are found. Sorry, but the notion that students can fail courses on the basis of "credit jepardizing assisemments" is patently false.

You're just wrong. It happens all the time. I've seen the course outlines. I have one in front of me, right now, for CLN 4UO - International Law at GCVI in Guelph, fall 2009.

[Mustang1]

Lemmy Lemmy:

I never said they necessarily fail. I say they could, and do.

But not just because they failed the essay.

$1:

You're just wrong. It happens all the time. I've seen the course outlines. I have one in front of me, right now, for CLN 4UO - Internation Law at GCVI in Guelph, fall 2009.

Interesting...this is a locally-developed course outline or ministry? I'd say the former and it specifically outlines "credit jeopardizing assignments" in it? If it does, that's a school/teacher-based term and if it's actually implemented in violation of ministry guidelines, then they're wrong. Oh...and is the 70/30 split outlined there as well?

This doesn't happen all the time.

[Lemmy]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

But not just because they failed the essay.

Maybe yes, maybe no...depends whether there was an other opportunity to demonstrate the required strands tested by the essay. They could also be failed for NOT submitting the essay.

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Interesting...this is a locally-developed course outline or ministry? I'd say the former and it specifically outlines "credit jeopardizing assignments" in it? If it does, that's a school/teacher-based term and if it's actually implemented in violation of ministry guidelines, then they're wrong. Oh...and is the 70/30 split outlined there as well?

No, it's CLN 4UO, grade 12 University International Law...under evaluation policy, it says "Course work 70%, Final Exam 30%. The Independent Study Unit, Case-study Assignment and Final Examination are eseeential elements of tehe course evaluation and may be credit jeopardizing if not successfully completed. This course is designed for a high degree of class participation and debate. Poor attendance may also be credit jeopardizing."

Mustang1 Mustang1:

This doesn't happen all the time.

You can say that as many times as you like, but you're wrong, man, you're wrong.

[Mustang1]

Lemmy Lemmy:

They could also be failed for NOT submitting the essay.

Nope...not if they passed the course, and the final 30%, they couldn't. Sorry.

$1:

No, it's CLN 4UO, grade 12 University International Law...under evaluation policy, it says "Course work 70%, Final Exam 30%. The Independent Study Unit, Case-study Assignment and Final Examination are eseeential elements of tehe course evaluation and may be credit jeopardizing if not successfully completed. This course is designed for a high degree of class participation and debate. Poor attendance may also be credit jeopardizing."

So...the 70/30 exists and all the course outline has done is warn students that certain elements are important/essential elements of the evaluation. It doesn't seem to suggest that by failing the ISU/performance tasks/etc the student automatically fails the course (it just "might" hurt them and that could be true if they are heavily weighted in the the course component).

$1:

You can say that as many times as you like, but you're wrong, man, you're wrong.

Take your own advice. Even your own course outline proves my point regarding the basic 70/30 adherence.

[Lemmy]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

Even your own course outline proves my point regarding the basic 70/30 adherence.

I never debated that point. I know about the 70-30 directive. I said that teachers can easily skirt that ratio by calling course-assignments "culminating activities". It happens all the time. Ask a phys-ed teacher.

[martin14]

Yogi Yogi:

The store that I do most of my subcontract work for has taken on a local high school student for 'work experience'. The young fellow is in GrXI. He works 5 afternoons per week, and gets paid min wage for hours worked. The time spent, and performance is graded much the same as any course within the school confines. This program also counts towards his total credits for the year. For Mon-Fri he is scheduled to work with a different installer each day, and Friday is spent in the store. Whenever he is late, and the installer has left the shop, the young fellows 'book' is marked as 'absent', and he is sent home, and not paid. At the bottom of each page is a space for 'employer comment'. This is filled out appropriately, to reflect his performance. His performance thus far has been 'poor enough' that his mommy has come into the store imploring the owner not to be so harsh, that "it seems like you want my son to fail and be kicked out of the program! It was politely, but firmly explained to 'Mommy' that " Junior's future is completely in his own hands.. he must show up on time and work diligently"!

Good on you Yogi !

Nice to see this post in here.

Reading the tete a tete between Mustang and Lemmy is getting depressing,
arguing over documents and guidelines, instead of getting to the real problem.

High school must include a component for living in the society.

Being on time is a simple life lesson, teach it early and you will be ok.

Instead, it looks like the schools have dropped the ball,
and now in addition to everything else, business people must show
new employees that they really should try to be on time, if it's not too much to ask..

And it looks like some teachers actually support this
policy.. gives them more time to read regulations I guess.

[OldChum]

In the long run we are wrong to not fail kids and as a society we need to look at our spoiling of children . Have you ever noticed how most of the scholarships are won by Asians . Much harder worker kids without a doubt.

[ShepherdsDog]

Asian(Chinese) students study for the exam, which is why they score so high on them. Their classes entail studying only for what will be covered on their exam, and it's merely memorization, not learning(if they find another way to come up with the answer, they''ll be marked wrong). Hell, it's almost Pavlovian conditioning, as there is almost no evaluation and or synthesis.

Here in Taiwan the kids start having exams every six weeks and you have kids in elementary school developing ulcers because they are worried about getting into the right Junior High, so they can get into the right High School and then the right university.

[Yogi]

We are supposed to be helping our kids 'get ready' to go out into 'the real world', and what not just the Manitoba School System is doing, is a gross mis-service to society! As an employer, I pay for and expect,nay, I will not settle for less than 'be on time, dress appropriately, and conduct yourself in a professional manner, ( we are the frontline representatives of the company we work for),many of our customers are repeat customers. Ultimately, our paycheques depend upon their business.
I am only going to address issues that I have had with young people, new to the workforce. I have had employees show up 3 hours late, whining "I slept in. Why didn't you phone me"? To which I replied " I am not your mother. You knew what time you were supposed to be here. Once more without a phone call and a good reason, and you are finished!" On out of town jobs, everyone is given plenty of notice. I have had employees fail to show up, the crews left for the job without them. No phone call to explain their absence, at that point 'they were finished'! If it wasn't too far out of my way, (transportation to and from is their responsibility), I would pick them up on my way to work. I would have been embarrassed to show up with some of these employees the way they were dressed. ( Filthy rags would be an understatement!) Some showed up on commercial jobsites- PPE REQUIRED- wearing muscle-shirt, shorts, and sandals, sunglasses perched on top of their head, earphones hanging on their neck, perfect for a day at the beach! To the point that I have driven some directly to a department store, handed them money, and waited while they went in and purchased decent 'working attire'. Some of them had no idea what a 'per diem' was for and used it to buy such things as 'fireworks,cd's,video games,booze, and,$85.00 shirts! They were also told " Your finished. The money will come off your final paycheque."
I could go on, and on, but I think you get the idea.
The way, and what these kids are/aren't being taught is a gross mis-service to not only them, but to society as a whole!

[ASLplease]

Yogi Yogi:

We are supposed to be helping our kids 'get ready' to go out into 'the real world', and what not just the Manitoba School System is doing, is a gross mis-service to society! As an employer, I pay for and expect,nay, I will not settle for less than 'be on time, dress appropriately, and conduct yourself in a professional manner, ( we are the frontline representatives of the company we work for),many of our customers are repeat customers. Ultimately, our paycheques depend upon their business.
I am only going to address issues that I have had with young people, new to the workforce. I have had employees show up 3 hours late, whining "I slept in. Why didn't you phone me"? To which I replied " I am not your mother. You knew what time you were supposed to be here. Once more without a phone call and a good reason, and you are finished!" On out of town jobs, everyone is given plenty of notice. I have had employees fail to show up, the crews left for the job without them. No phone call to explain their absence, at that point 'they were finished'! If it wasn't too far out of my way, (transportation to and from is their responsibility), I would pick them up on my way to work. I would have been embarrassed to show up with some of these employees the way they were dressed. ( Filthy rags would be an understatement!) Some showed up on commercial jobsites- PPE REQUIRED- wearing muscle-shirt, shorts, and sandals, sunglasses perched on top of their head, earphones hanging on their neck, perfect for a day at the beach! To the point that I have driven some directly to a department store, handed them money, and waited while they went in and purchased decent 'working attire'. Some of them had no idea what a 'per diem' was for and used it to buy such things as 'fireworks,cd's,video games,booze, and,$85.00 shirts! They were also told " Your finished. The money will come off your final paycheque."
I could go on, and on, but I think you get the idea.
The way, and what these kids are/aren't being taught is a gross mis-service to not only them, but to society as a whole!

i think we screwed up when someone decided that we stop firing these guys at the drop of a hat.

[Brenda]

Huh, and here they (the bosses) are telling me I need to buy dress pants for an $8/hr nightshiftjob at a motel...

[Yogi]

Brenda Brenda:

Huh, and here they (the bosses) are telling me I need to buy dress pants for an $8/hr nightshiftjob at a motel...

If a particular 'code of dress' causes you to have to purchase clothing used strictly for work then it is classified as a uniform and is deductable.

[ASLplease]

Brenda Brenda:

Huh, and here they (the bosses) are telling me I need to buy dress pants for an $8/hr nightshiftjob at a motel...

as screwed up as that sounds, i think its always been that way