[commanderkai]

DerbyX DerbyX:

My source said this: When prospective clients are convicted of the criminal offence of "communicating" they are, unlike the prostitutes themselves, rarely jailed and this: while young girls, frequently homeless, must fight it out on the streets with both clients and police.

Try reading my post before answering OK.

I believe Lily, and I were referring to prostitutes who go to the police over being raped. They have to fight the police as being prostitutes, but if they're raped, the police aren't going to toss them into jail just because they're a prostitute. At least, I wouldn't think so, but Victims rights in Canada is slim.

Derby, if you're going to prove something, try to realize the argument. Roman said that prostitutes who are raped would go to jail when they tell the police about the rape, but Lily disagreed, and I'd pointed out that police would ignore the prostitute's past and help her as a victim

[Brenda]

You KNOW so or you THINK so?

[DerbyX]

RUEZ RUEZ:

Typical left, legalize everything they like, like hookers and blow. But take away things we like, like guns.

Lilys left and I support gun rights. Typical right, use the law to enforce their personal morality but hollar like speared aardvarks if the things they like are threatened.

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

DerbyX DerbyX:

My source said this: When prospective clients are convicted of the criminal offence of "communicating" they are, unlike the prostitutes themselves, rarely jailed and this: while young girls, frequently homeless, must fight it out on the streets with both clients and police.

Try reading my post before answering OK.

I believe Lily, and I were referring to prostitutes who go to the police over being raped. They have to fight the police as being prostitutes, but if they're raped, the police aren't going to toss them into jail just because they're a prostitute. At least, I wouldn't think so, but Victims rights in Canada is slim.

Derby, if you're going to prove something, try to realize the argument. Roman said that prostitutes who are raped would go to jail when they tell the police about the rape, but Lily disagreed, and I'd pointed out that police would ignore the prostitute's past and help her as a victim

Roman said "abused". He then made an allegory using the blaming the rape victim. Now you need to go back and re-read the argument because I understood it from the git go. Prostitutes have indeed met with symapthetic police (the ones supporting legalizations BTW) but they also meet with those that think they get what they deserve. They also face a legal system that knows full well the chances to convict a john for raping a prostitute are difficult indeed. Suppose she said it to try and blackmail the john? (just playing devils advocate).

BTW, Lily isn't making a statement of fact but offering her opinion. I believe her too. I believe she thinks that. That doesn't mean shes correct though. My source however did research.

[bootlegga]

RUEZ RUEZ:

Typical left, legalize everything they like, like hookers and blow. But take away things we like, like guns.

I'm all for gun ownership, just not the ownership of military weapons.

[DerbyX]

commanderkai commanderkai:

Making prostitution fully legal ends all illegal prostitution. No shit Derby. Making all crime fully legal ends all crime too. I'm guessing that's your argument? Make all prostitution legal? Child prostitutes? Make them legal, have child brothels. Seriously Derby, grow up. You want prostitution legal? Fine, but where's the limit? Children? Women smuggled in? How about sex slaves?

Learn to fully understand. It was a simple statement of logic. Making everything legal would indeed eliminate crime but not the problems associated with it as I clearly indicated was the case in prostitution.

commanderkai commanderkai:

Okay, and some prostitutes are forced to do it, some prostitutes are forced by pimps and mob members to be prostitutes after being smuggled in and intimidated. Some are whored out by their family members because of whatever reason. Either way, you're arguing nothing. There are plenty of reasons why they might be prostitutes.

So what? Your argument is unrelated to the debate about legalization. The reason they end up doing it doesn't change the fact that legalalizing it and protecting the women simply makes life better for them and hopefully enables them to get out of a forced situation, something they have a hard enough time as is.

With legal brothels it only makes sense that police could therefore focus their efforts on those run in an illegal manner without having to deal with the whole "you aren't enforcing the law fairly" as they often face when they go after a few establishements and ignore the other 90% or so. By making legal brothels more visible and accountable it brings it into the open and helps minimze the exploitation and illegality of its workers. It also allows the police to know which ones are legal easily and raid the ones that aren't with greater effectiveness.

commanderkai commanderkai:

And so far, your logic is to make everything completely legal. Like you said, let's legalize ALL prostitution. So let's legalize everything else. Make all immigration legal, let's make all sweatshops legal as well, toss away any business regulation. Let's make sure there are no laws for the safety on the roads. Who needs environmental regulation or gun laws? Want to drag race in the middle of a crowded street? Do so.

A strawman attack. No I don't. I quite clearly state my reasons that because prostitution is between consenting adults, is a moral choice and isn't threatening anyone else it should be legal. Your argument ignores the other people factor. Just as racing is perfectly legal in a proper venue (like prostitution and brothels) street racing on public streets endangers others. See the difference?

commanderkai commanderkai:

There are already legal forms of prostitution, like the porno industry, and in a very watered down way, stripping is like prostitution lite. And, where do we draw the line? Should we start making legal brothels? What about all the prostitutes that have been forced into the business? Do they get pushed aside as police units that used to enforce prostitution laws get dissolved so they can regulate brothels? Sure, those women IN the brothels would be safe, but would the ones on the street be at more risk?

The police wouldn't regulate brothels anymore then they do strip clubs or bars. The LLCO does that (in Ontario). They do enforce the laws and legal problems that may arise (fights, noise complaints, etc).

BTW, yes I do want legal brothels. As already stated the police and municipalities already turn a blind eye to escot services and defacto brothels. Why not give them legal protection as well?

commanderkai commanderkai:

Stop yelling and tossing tantrums and insults. What do you want? Fully legal prostitution? Or do you want some limits? All I've been discussing is that brothels do not confront the sex slave trade. The fact is, it probably won't help as mob groups might start running their own, using legal protections to protect their business and their illegal prostitutes. Do we have government licensed brothels? Or government run brothels? Should we have brothels like we have the Beer Store? You can't just snap your fingers and make something legal. You need a plan, and so far yelling that you can't control what people do with their bodies (and yet the government can control what I own. Why should prostitution be legal when I can't own some firearms?) isn't a plan.

The only one throwing tantrums is you because I won't agree with you and I am beating your arguements hands down. Take a step back sunshine and lose the hysterics.

You most certainly have not just been discussing that brothels don't confront the sex slave trade. You have infact been arguing against it entirely based on a fundemental flaw in logic. Australian brothels deal with this. Australia has both legal brothels and illegal street-walker type although its enforced mainly through no-loitering type legislation. They are regulated and scrutinized to ensure no underage workers just like any other work site. Does it still happen? Yes? Does it render the protection afforded to brothel workers mute? No.

I also don't need to table a full plan because I'm not enacting legislation but if you insist.

Lets adopt the aussie method to begin with. We can then refine it to our needs.

If you really want some legal approaches based on the aussie model (pdf).

[DerbyX]

bootlegga bootlegga:

RUEZ RUEZ:

Typical left, legalize everything they like, like hookers and blow. But take away things we like, like guns.

I'm all for gun ownership, just not the ownership of military weapons.

What? Why can't I have a one of these for home defence?

[bootlegga]

ridenrain ridenrain:

Say a legal industry is established and only the slim group of women who want to be hookers are employed. The beaten, illegal immigrant or addicted hookers will still exist and they will never be accepted into the legitimate brothels. That leaves them even more margenalized and still illegal. They now walk the streets, away from the safe zones and don't have the safety, protection of the legitimate industry.

The only significant change I see is that some managers or legitimate criminal gangs got stinking rich along the way,and prostitutes still get screwed.
No significant change.

You obviously have no idea of how the industry works at all do you? If you honestly think that 100% of prostitution in this country are women standing under red streetlights and walking up to people in cars asking "Looking for some company?" you haven't a clue.

In many parts of Canada, most prostitution happens in 'massage parlours', where the owner (usually a working girl herself), pays the city a 'licensing fee' to operate. The girls are told to only give massages, but whatever happens in the room between two consenting adults is anyone's idea. A few years ago, I volunteered for a non-profit helping those in the trade a few years ago and talked to a few ladies. Most of them said they did it because it was big money. Not because they were addicted to heroin, or crack, but because it helped earn a 6 figure (most of it tax free) income. They reported giving massages for $50 to the gov't and pocketed the rest, which if you asked her for the whole enchilada, was another $200+. They only worked a few days a week and made more than $2000 a day. If they were bored, they could do some stripping on the side too, for even more money (not tax free though). The girls all stuck together, and if someone got rowdy, they called the police who came and got rid of him. The only 'raids' were inspections of the facilities by city officials.

For the most part, the girls working the streets in the bad part of town are usually the ones who need help the most, working for organized crime and/or feeding a drug habit. Those girls are the ones terrorized by scum like that asshole in your article, and the police can only do so much. With a legalized system in place, society would be able to do more for those poor girls.

If we legalized and taxed just the massage parlour business, that would be a huge boost in taxes (I don't know about Vancouver, but Edmonton has dozens of them), plus it would make the whole process safer, especially if STD checks were required as well. Hell, part of those taxes could go to helping stamp out those forced to work for Haitian crime bosses.

[DerbyX]

bootlegga bootlegga:

ridenrain ridenrain:

Say a legal industry is established and only the slim group of women who want to be hookers are employed. The beaten, illegal immigrant or addicted hookers will still exist and they will never be accepted into the legitimate brothels. That leaves them even more margenalized and still illegal. They now walk the streets, away from the safe zones and don't have the safety, protection of the legitimate industry.

The only significant change I see is that some managers or legitimate criminal gangs got stinking rich along the way,and prostitutes still get screwed.
No significant change.

You obviously have no idea of how the industry works at all do you? If you honestly think that 100% of prostitution in this country are women standing under red streetlights and walking up to people in cars asking "Looking for some company?" you haven't a clue.

In many parts of Canada, most prostitution happens in 'massage parlours', where the owner (usually a working girl herself), pays the city a 'licensing fee' to operate. The girls are told to only give massages, but whatever happens in the room between two consenting adults is anyone's idea. A few years ago, I volunteered for a non-profit helping those in the trade a few years ago and talked to a few ladies. Most of them said they did it because it was big money. Not because they were addicted to heroin, or crack, but because it helped earn a 6 figure (most of it tax free) income. They reported giving massages for $50 to the gov't and pocketed the rest, which if you asked her for the whole enchilada, was another $200+. They only worked a few days a week and made more than $2000 a day. If they were bored, they could do some stripping on the side too, for even more money (not tax free though). The girls all stuck together, and if someone got rowdy, they called the police who came and got rid of him. The only 'raids' were inspections of the facilities by city officials.

For the most part, the girls working the streets in the bad part of town are usually the ones who need help the most, working for organized crime and/or feeding a drug habit. Those girls are the ones terrorized by scum like that asshole in your article, and the police can only do so much. With a legalized system in place, society would be able to do more for those poor girls.

If we legalized and taxed just the massage parlour business, that would be a huge boost in taxes (I don't know about Vancouver, but Edmonton has dozens of them), plus it would make the whole process safer, especially if STD checks were required as well. Hell, part of those taxes could go to helping stamp out those forced to work for Haitian crime bosses.

I'll repost this for ridenrain in case he doesn't read my response to commanderkai.

http://www.chezstella.org/docs/IntAppro ... tution.pdf

This is a good source material for examing the differing methods of legalization/decriminalization of prostitution as it varies from state to state in Australia and New Zealand.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

hollar like speared ardvarks

I had no idea that you'd actually speared an aardvark in order to gain such a unique insight on the similarities between the tonal qualities of offended conservatives and speared aardvarks. I'm impressed.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

hollar like speared ardvarks

I had no idea that you'd actually speared an aardvark in order to gain such a unique insight on the similarities between the tonal qualities of offended conservatives and speared aardvarks. I'm impressed.

Without legalized prostitution we got to have something to pass the time.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

hollar like speared ardvarks

I had no idea that you'd actually speared an aardvark in order to gain such a unique insight on the similarities between the tonal qualities of offended conservatives and speared aardvarks. I'm impressed.

Without legalized prostitution we got to have something to pass the time.

[ridenrain]

One more time.

If you and people like you believe this is right, put it in a public platform and run with it in the next federal election. Let the people decide what they think is best.

I'm sick of appointed judges circumventing the policy path that should be done by politicians, of any stripe.

[hwacker]

ridenrain ridenrain:

One more time.

If you and people like you believe this is right, put it in a public platform and run with it in the next federal election. Let the people decide what they think is best.

I'm sick of appointed judges circumventing the policy path that should be done by politicians, of any stripe.

Now now riden you know liberals won't do that, they just like to pass crap like this without the public input, you know this is a human right.

[Zipperfish]

It's called freedom, baby. I know you right-wingers loathe the word, but that's why we should legalize prositution.