[Scape]

Tman1 Tman1:

Georgia invades Ossetia to reassert control, kills people. Russia retaliates because they don't like Georgias close ties to NATO (even though their most top rated popular Russian leader, Stalin was Georgian) and sends in troops and tanks, ousts Georgia from the capital, bombs Georgia itself...

My take? Georgia bit off more than it could chew (its like a war between Canada and the U.S.) but can still contribute a scratch to the face, offers cease fires (rejected) even though their air space is invaded and bombed. Georgia has an air force doesn't it? Why does it allow Russian planes to invade and bomb their towns outside of Ossetia?

Stalin was and is hated. Fear and popularity are not the same thing.

Regardless of who stared the fighting, and considering just how much Russia had on standby on such a short notice one can not rule out this was a setup by Russia, this will not end until Georgia is made into a vassal of Russia. Ukraine has much to fear over this turn of events as they have already had dealing with Russia such as when they tried to kill their President so they are thinking they will be next if they don't stop this now. This could also spread to Turkmenistan where they killed their leader as well.

Looks like Russia is attacking Georgia from Cyberspace as well.

Oh and about that Georgian air force:

Russia steps up attacks

$1:

TBILISI (AFP) — Russia intensified attacks on Georgia on Monday, the Tblisi government said, ignoring appeals for a ceasefire and US diplomatic warnings.

After taking control of Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia, Russian warplanes carried out fresh bombing raids in Georgia, Georgia's foreign ministry said.

With Russia saying more than 2,000 people have been killed, Europe led diplomatic efforts to end the conflict with the French and Finnish foreign minister holding talks in Tblisi on Monday ahead of a meeting with Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev in Moscow on Tuesday.

US President George W. Bush, Georgia's strongest western ally, told Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin that the Russian offensive was "unacceptable".

"More than 50 Russian warplanes are flying over Georgia. Tbilisi was bombed. Bombs hit the village of Kojori and Makhata mountain," the foreign ministry in Tblisi said.

Russian planes bombed radars at Tbilisi airport and hit civilian targets in the Georgian city of Gori, an interior ministry spokesman said.

Russian planes had already bombed a special forces base and an air traffic control centre in the Tbilisi suburbs, the spokesman said.

Explosions could be heard from the centre of the capital.

Three Russian soldiers were killed and another 18 wounded by Georgian forces in South Ossetia on Monday, despite Georgia saying it had withdrawn its forces, Russia's Interfax news agency quoted a South Ossetian spokesman as saying.

Russia, which has already moved battleships to the Black Sea, is preparing to deploy 9,000 troops to bolster its forces inside a second separatist Georgian region, Abkhazia, a military spokesman was quoted as saying by Interfax.

It will also send more than 350 armoured vehicles to add to what is officially a Russian peacekeeping force in the breakaway region, the Russian spokesman, Alexander Novitsky, was quoted as saying.

Russian forces in Abkhazia on Monday issued an ultimatum to Georgian forces demanding they lay down their weapons, their commander was quoted as saying by Interfax.

Georgia's interior ministry denied on Monday that Georgian soldiers were cornered by rebels in a part of Abkhazia region, saying all attacks in the area had been repelled.

"There were several attacks on the Kodori Gorge, all of them repelled," interior ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said in a televised briefing.

Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said late Sunday that Russian tanks were on Georgian territory outside South Ossetia the interior ministry said a "massive" aerial bombardment of the centre of Gori was taking place.

"Gori is being bombed massively from the air and from artillery as well," said the spokesman, who added that the government had reports that Russian troops and tanks were preparing a ground attack.

Moscow said it had sunk a Georgian naval vessel and taken control of most of South Ossetia from Georgian forces. The Russian foreign ministry said Georgia still had soldiers and tanks in the area however.

Russia pursued its offensive despite Georgia saying it had ended its push on South Ossetia.

"Georgia expresses its readiness to immediately start negotiations with the Russian Federation on a ceasefire and termination of hostilities," an official Georgian statement said.

Russia disputed this, however, with the commander of the Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia saying they had come under attack by Georgian forces again early Monday.

"In certain zones (near Tskhinvali) Russian peacekeepers met active confrontation" overnight, Marat Kulakhmetov told Interfax.

The United States has strongly criticised Russia.

Bush said Monday he had told Russian Prime Minister Putin that the violence in Georgia was "unacceptable".

Vice President Dick Cheney told Saakashvili in a telephone conversation "that Russian aggression must not go unanswered," his office said in a statement.

The French and Finnish foreign ministers Bernard Kouchner and Alexander Stubb arrived in Tbilisi on Sunday to spearhead mediation efforts.

"We must find the means for an immediate ceasefire, accepted by both sides," Kouchner told reporters after meeting with Saakashvili.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy is expected to head to Moscow Tuesday to "try to finalise" a ceasefire with Georgia, Kouchner told French radio from Tbilisi

The European Union-backed plan calls for an immediate ceasefire, medical access to victims, controlled withdrawals of troops on both sides and eventual political talks.

The two ministers were to meet Medvedev in Moscow, where French President Nicolas Sarkozy was also due Moscow.

European Union foreign ministers are to hold a crisis meeting to discuss the bloc's response to the conflict on Wednesday in Brussels, an EU source told AFP.

Russia sent thousands of troops, tanks and air support into South Ossetia on Friday after Georgia launched an offensive to seize control of the province, which broke from Georgia in the early 1990s.

The conflict has already forced about 40,000 people from their homes in areas around the conflict zone, an International Committee of the Red Cross spokeswoman told AFP.

While Russia put the death toll in South Ossetia at 2,000, estimates of the toll in Georgia ranged from 92 to 150.

South Ossetia, a patchwork of ethnic Georgian and Ossetian settlements in the mountainous north of the country, has a population of about 70,000, many of whom have been granted Russian passports.

[EyeBrock]

Scape Scape:

Tman1 Tman1:

Georgia invades Ossetia to reassert control, kills people. Russia retaliates because they don't like Georgias close ties to NATO (even though their most top rated popular Russian leader, Stalin was Georgian) and sends in troops and tanks, ousts Georgia from the capital, bombs Georgia itself...

My take? Georgia bit off more than it could chew (its like a war between Canada and the U.S.) but can still contribute a scratch to the face, offers cease fires (rejected) even though their air space is invaded and bombed. Georgia has an air force doesn't it? Why does it allow Russian planes to invade and bomb their towns outside of Ossetia?

Stalin was and is hated. Fear and popularity are not the same thing.

Regardless of who stared the fighting, and considering just how much Russia had on standby on such a short notice one can not rule out this was a setup by Russia, this will not end until Georgia is made into a vassal of Russia. Ukraine has much to fear over this turn of events as they have already had dealing with Russia such as when they tried to kill their President so they are thinking they will be next if they don't stop this now. This could also spread to Turkmenistan where they killed their leader as well.

Looks like Russia is attacking Georgia from Cyberspace as well.

Oh and about that Georgian air force:

Russia steps up attacks

$1:

TBILISI (AFP) — Russia intensified attacks on Georgia on Monday, the Tblisi government said, ignoring appeals for a ceasefire and US diplomatic warnings.

After taking control of Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia, Russian warplanes carried out fresh bombing raids in Georgia, Georgia's foreign ministry said.

With Russia saying more than 2,000 people have been killed, Europe led diplomatic efforts to end the conflict with the French and Finnish foreign minister holding talks in Tblisi on Monday ahead of a meeting with Russia's President Dmitry Medvedev in Moscow on Tuesday.

US President George W. Bush, Georgia's strongest western ally, told Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin that the Russian offensive was "unacceptable".

"More than 50 Russian warplanes are flying over Georgia. Tbilisi was bombed. Bombs hit the village of Kojori and Makhata mountain," the foreign ministry in Tblisi said.

Russian planes bombed radars at Tbilisi airport and hit civilian targets in the Georgian city of Gori, an interior ministry spokesman said.

Russian planes had already bombed a special forces base and an air traffic control centre in the Tbilisi suburbs, the spokesman said.

Explosions could be heard from the centre of the capital.

Three Russian soldiers were killed and another 18 wounded by Georgian forces in South Ossetia on Monday, despite Georgia saying it had withdrawn its forces, Russia's Interfax news agency quoted a South Ossetian spokesman as saying.

Russia, which has already moved battleships to the Black Sea, is preparing to deploy 9,000 troops to bolster its forces inside a second separatist Georgian region, Abkhazia, a military spokesman was quoted as saying by Interfax.

It will also send more than 350 armoured vehicles to add to what is officially a Russian peacekeeping force in the breakaway region, the Russian spokesman, Alexander Novitsky, was quoted as saying.

Russian forces in Abkhazia on Monday issued an ultimatum to Georgian forces demanding they lay down their weapons, their commander was quoted as saying by Interfax.

Georgia's interior ministry denied on Monday that Georgian soldiers were cornered by rebels in a part of Abkhazia region, saying all attacks in the area had been repelled.

"There were several attacks on the Kodori Gorge, all of them repelled," interior ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said in a televised briefing.

Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said late Sunday that Russian tanks were on Georgian territory outside South Ossetia the interior ministry said a "massive" aerial bombardment of the centre of Gori was taking place.

"Gori is being bombed massively from the air and from artillery as well," said the spokesman, who added that the government had reports that Russian troops and tanks were preparing a ground attack.

Moscow said it had sunk a Georgian naval vessel and taken control of most of South Ossetia from Georgian forces. The Russian foreign ministry said Georgia still had soldiers and tanks in the area however.

Russia pursued its offensive despite Georgia saying it had ended its push on South Ossetia.

"Georgia expresses its readiness to immediately start negotiations with the Russian Federation on a ceasefire and termination of hostilities," an official Georgian statement said.

Russia disputed this, however, with the commander of the Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia saying they had come under attack by Georgian forces again early Monday.

"In certain zones (near Tskhinvali) Russian peacekeepers met active confrontation" overnight, Marat Kulakhmetov told Interfax.

The United States has strongly criticised Russia.

Bush said Monday he had told Russian Prime Minister Putin that the violence in Georgia was "unacceptable".

Vice President Dick Cheney told Saakashvili in a telephone conversation "that Russian aggression must not go unanswered," his office said in a statement.

The French and Finnish foreign ministers Bernard Kouchner and Alexander Stubb arrived in Tbilisi on Sunday to spearhead mediation efforts.

"We must find the means for an immediate ceasefire, accepted by both sides," Kouchner told reporters after meeting with Saakashvili.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy is expected to head to Moscow Tuesday to "try to finalise" a ceasefire with Georgia, Kouchner told French radio from Tbilisi

The European Union-backed plan calls for an immediate ceasefire, medical access to victims, controlled withdrawals of troops on both sides and eventual political talks.

The two ministers were to meet Medvedev in Moscow, where French President Nicolas Sarkozy was also due Moscow.

European Union foreign ministers are to hold a crisis meeting to discuss the bloc's response to the conflict on Wednesday in Brussels, an EU source told AFP.

Russia sent thousands of troops, tanks and air support into South Ossetia on Friday after Georgia launched an offensive to seize control of the province, which broke from Georgia in the early 1990s.

The conflict has already forced about 40,000 people from their homes in areas around the conflict zone, an International Committee of the Red Cross spokeswoman told AFP.

While Russia put the death toll in South Ossetia at 2,000, estimates of the toll in Georgia ranged from 92 to 150.

South Ossetia, a patchwork of ethnic Georgian and Ossetian settlements in the mountainous north of the country, has a population of about 70,000, many of whom have been granted Russian passports.

I agree Scape.
This is has to look bad in Kiev too. The Russians were implicated in the attempted poisoning of Ukraine presidentViktor Yushchenko in 2004.
Putin is not happy that the old Soviet slave states are looking westward. Look at what happened last year in the Baltic states when the Estonians moved a statue dedicated to the Red Army.

It's also of note that Russian TU-95's are out again buzzing North American airspace. Russian subs are again following NATO battle groups.
There are multiple red flags ( pardon the pun) for the West that have been waved by Putin's Russia.
The Euro states are in for a rough time with their energy dependence on Russian oil and gas.
The UK has already drawn a line in the sand after the murder of the dissident Alexander Litvinenko in London.

I think those who were not around during the Cold War need to read up a little on the geo-political significance of what is going on in Russia these days.

[Scape]

And notice how it is Putin that is making all the big announcements not Medvedev? The new market reforms are a sham, Putin smashed the Oligarchs only to appoint himself emperor. The timing of this could not have been better for maximum effect with the Olympics and Bush on the last months in office.

Bush, Cheney: Russian aggression "must not go unanswered"

[llama66]

What can be done? the only option is to declare war. So it comes down to how does one defeat an enemy who can (and has in the past) turn off the Gas and Oil to much pf Europe? I don't think the United States or the UK (or any western power for that matter) has the manpower to launch a meaningful attack on Russia. The point also needs to be made, why turn a relatively "contained" conflict into total open war on a global level? Especially against a enemy as bloodthirsty as portrayed by some? Do we want the possibility of a ABC war? The UN can't do a thing, Russia has veto power. We need to hope for a peaceful solution, but we also need to understand we are spectators.

[Scape]

Inevitable Russia-Georgia war brewed for years

$1:

Under Vladimir Putin's presidency, Russia had granted citizenship and passports to adult residents of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the much larger separatist region on the Black Sea. The West had been skeptical of the validity of Russia's handing out passports by the thousands to citizens of another nation.

But whatever the legal merits, the Kremlin had laid the foundation for one of its public-relations arguments for invading Georgia:Its army was coming to the aid of Russian citizens under foreign attack.

In the ensuing years, even as Russia issued warnings, Saakashvili grew bolder. There were four regions out of Georgian control when he took office in 2004, but he restored two smaller regions, Ajaria in 2004 and the upper Kodori Gorge in 2006, with few deaths.

$1:

At senior levels, the United States helped rewrite Georgian military doctrine and train its commanders and staff officers. At the squad level, U.S. Marines and soldiers trained Georgian soldiers in the fundamentals of fighting a war.

Georgia, meanwhile, began re-equipping its forces — with Israeli and U.S. firearms, new convoys of vehicles and stockpiles of ammunition.

The public goal was to nudge Georgia toward NATO military standards. Privately, Georgian officials welcomed the martial coaching and buildup, and made clear they considered participation in Iraq as a sure way to prepare the Georgian military for "national reunification" — the local euphemism of choice for restoring Abkhazia and South Ossetia to Georgian control.

Armed Cossacks mobilise in anger at Tblisi's attack on enclave

$1:

Under Russia law, Cossacks - the descendants of runaway serfs and outlaws who in the past were employed to protect the country's southern border - are allowed to carry arms and carry out policing functions in cooperation with interior ministry forces

[ShepherdsDog]

Guess NATO should have thought about interfering in Kosovo a little more carefully.

[martin14]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Guess NATO should have thought about interfering in Kosovo a little more carefully.

here here... applause..

still, its gonna take a lot for Bush to start an August war,
with elections 3 months away.

looks like this was carefully planned.

just heard on the BBC, Russians are in Abkhazia already;
gee, that was fast preparation.

Wonder what happens after Russia crosses the South Ossetia border.....

[CanAm1]

Seems like the empire may have collapsed but there are many still that have the ideas of Marx and empire rebuilding dreams. The power is Putin and he is ex KGB.
He has "Illusions of Grandure" with the gravitas and might to back it up. As long as they don't make China nervous they will get away with whatever they want to do. The US nor Europe will back the Georgians up. Too much at stake.

[Zipperfish]

commanderkai commanderkai:

I seriously don't get it. Because one of their smaller anchors doesn't discuss Georgia, makes Fox News evil? Please.

Where did Scape say Fox news was evil?

[mustang7617]

the us is 2 tied down in Iraq i doubt the us will get involved. i think however that if this is allowed 2 continue its going 2 just spiral out of control. someone needs 2 stein n end this before it gets any worse

[martin14]

well, there is no one else, so i imagine it will get worse.

Russians are in Georgia itself now, Georgian troops reported falling back to defend
the capital.. looks like those 1000 troops pulled from Iraq might arrive just in
time to surrender.

The EU has some nonsense cease-fire agreement, cant see the Russians signing anything for couple days yet.. looks like they are having too much fun.

[Scape]

Russia opens 2nd front in Georgia, seizing towns

Putin assails US over conflict with Georgia

$1:

"It's a pity that some of our partners, instead of helping, are in fact trying to get in the way," Putin said at a Cabinet meeting. "I mean among other things the United States airlifting Georgia's military contingent from Iraq effectively into the conflict zone."

The U.S. military started flying some 2,000 Georgian troops home from Iraq on Sunday after Georgia recalled them. Georgian officials haven't said how many have come back, but a Russian general said eight U.S. military transport planes had already flown home some 800 Georgian troops.

Putin remarks also reflected deep anger at Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili.

"Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said. "And the incumbent Georgian leaders who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their sheds — these leaders must be taken under protection."

We helped in Iraq - now help us, beg Georgians

$1:

As a Russian jet bombed fields around his village, Djimali Avago, a Georgian farmer, asked me: “Why won’t America and Nato help us? If they won’t help us now, why did we help them in Iraq?”

Miriyan Gogolashvili, of Tkviav, said: “The Russians will be here tomorrow. They want to show us and the world how powerful they are. Tomorrow it will be Ukraine and nobody in the West is doing anything to stop them. Why were our soldiers in Kosovo and Iraq if we don’t get any help from the West now?” he asked.

[Zipperfish]

Everyone uses the terrorist or genocide card these days. Very convenient--it gives you a moral carte blanche.

[Scape]

It's the new black.

[Chagrin]

Of course they want us to help. They criticize us when we take action and then when we don't, they always ask us for help. It's a lose-lose situation for us.

I DO NOT want us to get involved, I am tired of my government getting into stupid, pointless wars.