[ridenrain]

Scape Scape:

Rain is Derbs bitch... too funny!

Aww Look Derb. You have a little friend. Usually it's the pedantic windbag association that must bail you out but this time it's a nobody.

It must crush you're delicate ego to see that an ex-Liberal leader is in such strong support of the misson:

$1:

...Speaking at a press conference after his panel delivered its report, Manley said that Canada must stand up for the rights of individuals, "of the human security of people whose own governments can't protect them."

"There are times when we have to count, there are times when it matters ... (that) we are prepared to be out there," he continued, "and we're prepared to pay the price because that's what you expect of a country like Canada."

Carleton University professor Elinor Sloan, a supporter of the mission, told CTV Newsnet she found Manley's words to be one of the more eloquent statements on why Canada should stay in Afghanistan...

Pitty the current rabble of Liberals don't have the guts or the strength of convictions to state the same thing. Their too busy chasing votes in Canada to let weighty or foreign to liberal matters like morals or "what's right" to creep into their vision.

Just so you can't twist and dither my words, I agree with this Liberal. I agreed with (capitals, just for you:) Paul Martin over his policy. if you can find some official record, I'd appreciate that too.

How can you rationalize that one of the most qualified men in the liberal administration feels that this mission is important enough for us to stay there? Was he bribed, or threatened by Chretien's mafia, or maybe he just got out of the BS politics and can now see that what he says and does is more important than getting elected just one more time.
I know that's a foreign idea to you, but it's quite popular, often called "do the right thing".

[dino_bobba_renno]

*sighs* Derb, does it really matter if Dion was referring to “military intervention” or “diplomatic efforts”. If he was referring to military intervention, well then he’s just a dumb-ass. But if he was referring to “diplomatic efforts”, well then that’s a totally different story then isn’t it? Considering Pakistan has about as much chance of controlling their boarders as my great grandfather has of controlling his bladder. Either way it was a pretty unwise statement to make. How do you think Pakistan feels about his remarks considering that both interpretations paint it’s current government as weak and ineffective on the international stage? Not really a step in the right direction if you’re contemplating .. say .. something like “diplomatic efforts” with them.
(and yes I know this will probably make Derb flip out)
Oh and look at Manley go! Holy Cow he’s come out stronger than most Conservatives on extending the mission.

[Scape]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

How do you think Pakistan feels about his remarks considering that both interpretations paint it’s current government as weak and ineffective on the international stage?

I'd say they need a slap up side the head for the billions in aid they get and what we get in return. Sorry, fuck status quo. We have a nuclear armed nation teetering on the brink and we are expecting results. DEMANDING they get off their ass is long overdue. They have an intelligence arm that has gone rouge and is directly supporting the very people we are fighting and they are at war not with the radicals but the grassroot support for democratic reform. Why are we supporting them when they bite the hand?

[Johnny_Utah]

Dion is a fucking idiot who's doing more damage to the Liberal Party then Chretien ever did..

[dino_bobba_renno]

Scape Scape:

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

How do you think Pakistan feels about his remarks considering that both interpretations paint it’s current government as weak and ineffective on the international stage?

I'd say they need a slap up side the head for the billions in aid they get and what we get in return. Sorry, fuck status quo. We have a nuclear armed nation teetering on the brink and we are expecting results. DEMANDING they get off their ass is long overdue. They have an intelligence arm that has gone rouge and is directly supporting the very people we are fighting and they are at war not with the radicals but the grassroot support for democratic reform. Why are we supporting them when they bite the hand?

Holy, what ever happened to “soft politics”? Man you’re sounding like a conservative more every day. Buddy, venture out of the red room for a few minutes and take a look around. Can you honestly say that Pakistan has any chance what so ever of controlling their borders? And that militant wing in their intelligence service, what exactly would you propose they do about it? Canada can’t even weed out a couple of bad apple bureaucrats who are over charging their expense accounts and you expect them to weed extremists in their intelligence service while the entire country is teetering? I would imagine Pakistan’s government would love to get rid of the extremists but I think they’re pretty set on doing it in their own time and in their own way that won’t trigger a civil war in this nuclear armed country. While I support the idea that we should pressure Pakistan to improve diplomatically I don’t think this is a new or novel idea. What do you think the US and Canada have been has doing for the past few years. Dion’s comments on Pakistan show just out of touch he is with the issue. He’s been too busy duct taping his party back together again.

[sasquatch2]

DION shoots his mouth off without being properly briefed.

Pakistan has a delicate internal situation that it is attempting to keep a lid on. They have 100,000 troops in the north, cautiously dealing with the Taliban without sustaining unpopular casualties. They don't relish the prospect of killing their citizens either---even if they are misbehaving.

The Pakistan government has a very tight lid on it's armed forces to prevent a coup. The terrorist's have zero chance of overwhelming Pakistan's modern, well equipped, disciplined 500,000 strong military.

We may despair that Pakistan is not weilding it's military might more aggressively but in this age, the handwringers world wide would protest bitterly about the inevitable civilian casualties----even if these civilians in reality are armed terrorists.

The Northwest Frontier/Tribal Areas have always enjoyed a de facto autonomy because they even regard their own government as outsiders/invaders. Mentality wise they are stuck in the 6th century.

[Scape]

If we can not depend on Pakistan then we must view them as aiding and abiding the enemy. So what good is bailing out a leaky boat? If they can not have the fear of god put in to them to scare them to their senses then we are not serious about victory.

[Winnipegger]

The current Canadian government is damaging our international reputation. We used to be viewed as international boy scouts. It should be easy for us to go to an ally like Pakistan and ask for their help. To politely and diplomatically ask them to work with us to root-out enemy elements within their country. And we could help them at the same time by demonstrating Pakistani government control within their own country. A joint Canadian/Pakistani raid against al-Qaeda within the tribal areas of Pakistan. I see this as consistent with Canadian policy, what Canada has been since at least World War 2. Any implication that Canada would invade Pakistan is doing great damage.

Our efforts in Afghanistan will never accomplish anything the way operations are run now. Nothing except killing a lot of people: Taliban, Afghani civilians, Afghani soldiers, and NATO soldiers. Scape said "So what good is bailing out a leaky boat?" Good way of putting it.

[dino_bobba_renno]

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

Scape said "So what good is bailing out a leaky boat?" Good way of putting it.

"there are times when we have to count. There are times when it matters. We're not prepared to retreat under the U.S. missile shield and live in Fortress North America. We're prepared to be out there and we're prepared to pay the price, because that's what you expect of a country like Canada."
John Manley
You know that is best statement I have heard from any political figure in a long time. And the greatest thing about it is that it is coming from a Liberal. Dion should be taking notes.

Winnipegger Winnipegger:

The current Canadian government is damaging our international reputation. We used to be viewed as international boy scouts.

And how damaging would it be if we just cut and run. Manley's right, if Nato doesn't cough up more troops then yes we should with draw and we will have a legitimate reason for doing so. But to just bail out because of lack of interest, well we won't have to worry about not being seen as boy scouts any more because world will see us as a bunch of girl guides.

[DerbyX]

$1:

Aww Look Derb. You have a little friend. Usually it's the pedantic windbag association that must bail you out but this time it's a nobody.

A nobody? Considering the people who "bail me out" are all considerably thought more highly then you or the people that "bail you out" you have no leg to stand on.

$1:

It must crush you're delicate ego to see that an ex-Liberal leader is in such strong support of the misson:

Nope, try again. Unlike you my opinion isn't based on what my parties leader tells me it is.

$1:

Pitty the current rabble of Liberals don't have the guts or the strength of convictions to state the same thing. Their too busy chasing votes in Canada to let weighty or foreign to liberal matters like morals or "what's right" to creep into their vision.

How little you know. Dion is no more chasing vote sthen Harper is chasing votes from people like you who only really care about hearing Canadian soldiers killing brown people.

You aren't for any humanitarian mission and neither are the vast majority of those 'supporting it". If they were then they would have said something long ago back when it were a few hardy lefties risking their lives exposing the truth to a public that couldn't give a fuck and wouldn't have given a further fuck had the US been handed OBL.

Its the same reason we all told Bono to go to hell for wanting even a fraction of the money we are spending to help an even greater number of people in a different region.

Its the same reason that atrocities happen throughout the world and never is their a call to help out unless people like you get a chance to send in the military to kick ass.

If we can help without bloodshed or provide better aid without bloodshed then suddenly only a few bleeding heart lefties are left.

$1:

Just so you can't twist and dither my words, I agree with this Liberal. I agreed with (capitals, just for you:) Paul Martin over his policy. if you can find some official record, I'd appreciate that too.

Quite the statement from a hack so desperate to malign Dion that he has to twist his words into a BS meaning. You simply don't get it. It doesn't count as support when all you did was attack them day in and day out and use every Afghanistan related event to cast aspersions on them. It doesn't count as support when it comes well after the fact and with the knowledge your beloved stooge is primed to take over. It also doesn't count if you can't even figure out thing one about the mission nor understand any true factor behind it aside from your BS already busted humanitarian notion you use to gain support from those who wouldn't otherwise support it.

You did not support the Liberals in their decision even if you support troops being there. It isn''t the same as saying "I support Martins plan" while you vilify him at every other turn accordingly.

$1:

How can you rationalize that one of the most qualified men in the liberal administration feels that this mission is important enough for us to stay there? Was he bribed, or threatened by Chretien's mafia, or maybe he just got out of the BS politics and can now see that what he says and does is more important than getting elected just one more time.
I know that's a foreign idea to you, but it's quite popular, often called "do the right thing".

Then you support his statement that either Canada receives the support it demands from it allies including additional NATO troops across the board, immediate delivery of helicopters, and the support of our ällies" like Pakistan or else we should withdraw?

Aside from the fact that I most certainly can disagree with my party or even a party affiliated member assigned to the panel for no other reason then Harper knew his thoughts in advance.

In addition, I categorically reject your notion about "doing the right thing"because we aren't doing the right thing.

The right thing is never invading another countries territory and imposing our will upon them.

The ends do not justify the means any more then killing 10 babies to cure cancer that would save millions would be.

I also categorically reject your foolish notion that somehow Harper is "doing things for the good of the country"when the Liberals didn't,

The Liberals spent the last 13 years doing just about everything they did for the good of the country and the ever popular debt reduction is the smoking gun. The best thing for the country and the worst thing for a political party because it garners virtually no support compared to say spending 10 billion on healthcare rather then debt reduction.

In short you are wrong about Afghanistan and more importantly you are wrong about the Liberals and have been wrong from day one.

Afterall, thats why you continue to use my quote. Subconsciously you know I am right and you are compelled to keep it.

That and you are my bitch.

[DerbyX]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

*sighs* Derb, does it really matter if Dion was referring to “military intervention” or “diplomatic efforts”. If he was referring to military intervention, well then he’s just a dumb-ass. But if he was referring to “diplomatic efforts”, well then that’s a totally different story then isn’t it? Considering Pakistan has about as much chance of controlling their boarders as my great grandfather has of controlling his bladder. Either way it was a pretty unwise statement to make. How do you think Pakistan feels about his remarks considering that both interpretations paint it’s current government as weak and ineffective on the international stage? Not really a step in the right direction if you’re contemplating .. say .. something like “diplomatic efforts” with them.
(and yes I know this will probably make Derb flip out)
Oh and look at Manley go! Holy Cow he’s come out stronger than most Conservatives on extending the mission.

Does it matter if Dion was calling for a military Vs a diplomatic solution in Pakistan if they are offended? Yes it does matter. On one hand they are threatening an invasion which is just as bad as the US. On the other hand they are signalling that NATO is ready and willing to assist you if asked at the same time as sending the message.

Would it be unacceptable if Pakistan protested that NATO had strung a battle line the length of the Pakistan border with Afghanistan.?

[dino_bobba_renno]

DerbyX DerbyX:

How little you know. Dion is no more chasing vote sthen Harper is chasing votes from people like you who only really care about hearing Canadian soldiers killing brown people.

Ok just to start off Derb, that was an extremely unfair comment and I think you should consider retracting it. You’re better than that.

I’m at work at the moment but I’ll get back to you on the other stuff in bit.

[DerbyX]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

DerbyX DerbyX:

How little you know. Dion is no more chasing vote sthen Harper is chasing votes from people like you who only really care about hearing Canadian soldiers killing brown people.

Ok just to start off Derb, that was an extremely unfair comment and I think you should consider retracting it. You’re better than that.

I’m at work at the moment but I’ll get back to you on the other stuff in bit.

Since you are new here perhaps a little more background information would suffice.

Long ago I attempted to debate Riden on anything other then a baseless partisan level. At every opportunity I was spurned in favour of insults and derision for my support of the Liberals and my belief that Chretien and/or Martin were anything less then the corrupt (insert string of insults here) politicians they called them.

I tried in vain but was simply called names and labelled "just another corrupt vote anything Liberal" for daring to have an opinion different from the vocal cons. I rarely waste my time trying to make legit political points in a fair debate with these people becasue their response is invariably a rant about "lefties" and/or "Libranos". By now you should see who in fact are the usual suspects. Consequently I save good political debate for those I know will respond as such.

As for the war supporters doing so for no other reason then wanting to "hear about CDN soldiers killing brown people", well that might be a bit harsh but considering that the majority of those supporting the war to "aid Afghanistan muslims in a fight against tyranny" are on every other thread identifying islam itself as the source of the very violence that we are fighting".

Perhaps the phrasing that the chief reason for supporting efforts in Afghanistan are motivated by the desire to see CDN troops in action.


As for "wanting to help people", thats not even on the radar and judging by the complete lack of wanting to help with anything other then soldiers, the savage attack Chretien received for "wasting CDN taxpayer money on tsunami victims", and the utter lack of caring about Afghanistan until GWB invaded seem to suggest I'm right.

[ridenrain]

$1:

Manley later told Canwest News that the Liberal position may be coloured by domestic politics, but suggested his old party should rise above that consideration.

"I know what it's like when you're coming up to an election and the need to differentiate your party from another party," he said. "I just hope that the political actors in this case will acknowledge that when our kids are putting their lives on the line we've got to look at this from a little different perspective than we do any other kind of issue."

Manley himself is calling for the present liberal Party of Canada to stop playing politics and do the right thing.
The Liberal party is just hedging this so they can get more NDP votes, because they already surrendered the center to the Conservatives.
..and this has nothing to do with Afghanistan!

His BS comments were made in French, in Quebec city, 2 days after his "fact finding" trip.
Aside from the whole foolish idea that the opposition leader be talking foreign policy with other countries, why didn't he raise these concerns to the Pakistani or NATO people then?
Does anyone really believe that this is the only person who has seen or commented on this problem?
No. This was an offhand, stupid remark by a weak, failing candidate who was playing small town politics on a global stage, and he got caught out.
He looks like a fool, his party looks like fools, and Canada looks like fools, because of him.

[DerbyX]

$1:

Manley himself is calling for the present liberal Party of Canada to stop playing politics and do the right thing.
The Liberal party is just hedging this so they can get more NDP votes, because they already surrendered the center to the Conservatives.
..and this has nothing to do with Afghanistan!

Please.

You obviously conceded all my other points so I'll just remind you that Manley's opinion on the Liberal position on Afghanistan is just as credible as say John Turners opinion about the CPC under Harper.

$1:

His BS comments were made in French, in Quebec city, 2 days after his "fact finding" trip.
Aside from the whole foolish idea that the opposition leader be talking foreign policy with other countries, why didn't he raise these concerns to the Pakistani or NATO people then?

Who says he didn't? The fact that this sentiment is far from new and has been echoed by many others supports the position that NATO and the Pakistanis are well aware of it.

Its not as if Dion said all the NATO troops aren't good enough to fight the insurgents. Oh, wait. Our staunch allies and the country we are supposedly supporting said that and along came Peter to reassure everybody that gates didn't actually mean that (only to be rebuked and told "yes we did").

Of course it would help if the people running our country we be so kind as to give Dion the same benfit of the doubt especially in light of the fact that they went out of their way to further enflame the Pakistanis by confirming their accusations in order to score cheap political points, an act that could very well endanger the troops by causing the pakistani gov't to do even less.

Of course the fact that Dion himself may be himself more left then his predessors and is guiding the party that way seems lost on you.

The fact that Dion has decided that enough is enough is lost on you.

The fact that we have no right to be there regardless of who you cite supporting our presence seems lost on you.