[N_Fiddledog]

You won't hear me say this often but Kudos to the CBC. They went to a place I was surprised to see them go:

Buried behind the cows and cars: key changes in NAFTA 2.0

I actually learned stuff from the CBC. The world never stops surprising.

[Freakinoldguy]

Some people don't agree with the Dairy Board's claim that they will be destroyed by this 3.5% inroad made by the Americans. As the matter of fact the author claims that our Dairy Board is a Canadian Made Cartel who by using a 300% Tariff on dairy has effectively made the Canadian consumer a hostage to it's price fixing.

$1:

Canada’s supply management system for dairy is no longer defensible
MARTHA HALL FINDLAY
SPECIAL TO THE GLOBE AND MAIL
PUBLISHED AUGUST 18, 2017
UPDATED AUGUST 21, 2017

Martha Hall Findlay is President and CEO of the Canada West FoundationU.S. President Donald Trump has made it clear: Dairy is high on the U.S. agenda for NAFTA. And Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland has also made it clear that this government is committed to protecting supply management.

Three of the top-six milk-producing states in the United States – Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania – helped hand Mr. Trump his victory in November. Key Republicans hail from the U.S. dairyland, including Paul Ryan. And it's not just Republicans – there is substantial Democratic congressional support for U.S. dairy as well.

But for the North American free-trade agreement, our main negotiating challenge is this: The United States has a legitimate complaint. We continue to defend a system, at significant cost to consumers and to other parts of our economy, that is no longer defensible.

Our made-in-Canada cartel, based on high-price fixing, production control and extremely high tariffs, is the sick cow of global agricultural trade. The wealthy and powerful dairy, poultry and egg lobby has been able to engage in behaviour that for everyone else would be illegal.

In recent years Australia, New Zealand – and yes, the United States – have either eliminated or drastically reduced dairy subsidies, and taken advantage of growing global opportunities for their dairy products – leaving Canadian dairy behind to stagnate, limited to our own small market. But what are we protecting? The small number of dairy farmers left in Canada are, on average, multimillionaires. It's not surprising that they want – and spend a lot of money lobbying hard – to keep the system that has made them rich, but which costs consumers and most other parts of our economy. What we need are some politicians with courage.

The evidence for reform is overwhelming. With an appropriate transition plan (which the Canada West Foundation has proposed), liberalization can be a big win for Canada – ironically, for the dairy sector, too. Which means that these NAFTA negotiations offer a tremendous win-win opportunity.

Unfortunately, we still hear politicians repeating the dairy lobby's false and misleading talking points.

But these critical trade negotiations are no place for "alternative facts."

"Canadian prices aren't that high." Nonsense, of course they are – that's why we have tariffs ranging up to 300 per cent.

"We can't compete with the heavily subsidized U.S. dairy producers." Note that this contradicts the first position. But in recent years, the United States has dramatically reduced its own subsidization of dairy – and U.S. dairy is now exporting more and more around the world, leaving us behind.

"The U.S. maintains a large surplus in dairy trade with Canada." Between 2010-16, U.S. exports into Canada of ultrafiltered milk increased tenfold – the Americans developed this new dairy-protein product to be used in processing butter and cheese, but which was not covered by the high-tariff rules. Canadian processors increased their purchases of the cheaper product from the United States.

Under pressure from the dairy lobby, Canada has reacted, arguably in breach of international trade rules, to displace these cheaper U.S. imports with heavily subsidized pricing of milk for processing, to great hue and cry from the United States. We don't sell to the United States (or Mexico for that matter) by choice – our inflated prices aren't competitive.

"Supply management 'protects' the family farm." Not only is this false, the opposite is true. In Canada, the rate of consolidation has actually been higher – yes, higher – in the supply-managed dairy, poultry and egg sectors, than in most other agricultural sectors. Whereas in the 1970s, there were approximately 145,000 dairy producers, there are now barely more than 9,000.

"Supply management helps 'Canadian agriculture.'" Wrong again. It actually hurts the majority of Canadian farmers, including beef, pork, grain, oilseed and pulse producers, who would benefit from more global trade. Supply management unfairly protects only dairy, poultry and eggs – a mere 6 per cent of Canadian farmers.

"Without supply management, we'll get U.S. milk produced with growth hormones." The cartel structure has nothing to do with food safety. Some U.S. dairies do use artificial hormones for their herds – just as, by the way, most Canadian beef producers do. But for the Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA), Europe insisted that beef coming from Canada be hormone-free. Canada could do the same for U.S. milk.

"It is not a government subsidy." Government regulation protects the cartel, ensuring a subsidy that is paid for by all Canadians via artificially high dairy prices. All of the international trade authorities, including the World Trade Organization, have confirmed that it is indeed a subsidy, and a very significant one at that.

"We can't compete with our colder climate." It defies logic to claim that the climate in southern Quebec is different from immediately across the border in New York or Vermont. Most of Wisconsin is farther north than Toronto.

"It doesn't affect Canada's trade negotiations – see how many trade deals we've signed?"

Of course we have signed trade deals, but in protecting supply management we have always had to give on other things. As we engage in these all-important NAFTA negotiations, it is critically important to recognize that every trade negotiation is exactly that – a negotiation, with give and take. What are we willing to sacrifice this time?

NAFTA is a huge win-win opportunity to do what's right domestically and increase our leverage for other issues important to Canada. And the Trudeau government can blame the Americans.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report- ... e36029788/


Which is exactly what happened. But now that the bubble has been bust, I fully expect other countries who subsidize considerably less to demand access to our dairy markets, without the 300% tariffs.

But riddle me this. Why do some people champion globalization and it's purveyors in all forms and facets yet when it comes to things like giving a small piece of our dairy pie to the Americans do they lose their minds?

[peck420]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Some people don't agree with the Dairy Board's claim that they will be destroyed by this 3.5% inroad made by the Americans. As the matter of fact the author claims that our Dairy Board is a Canadian Made Cartel who by using a 300% Tariff on dairy has effectively made the Canadian consumer a hostage to it's price fixing.

So what, some people don't agree that 2 + 2 = 4. Doesn't make them right because they disagree.

Unfortunately, everything must be perfect for a subsidized perishable product to perform better fiscally, since that is the area you brought up, than a supply management system.

Sadly, perishable items also tend to become subsidy black holes for the same reason.

If we wished to go to a subsidized market, I would have started on relieving the goods to market infrastructure long before I ever even began to consider switching over. Make the scenario as 'perfect' as possible, to ensure minimum loses.

This is why the US currently pays to produce milk, and pays to destroy milk. It is a necessity of a subsidized system in an imperfect infrastructure climate.

[DrCaleb]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

But riddle me this. Why do some people champion globalization in all forms and facets yet when it comes to things like giving a small piece of the dairy pie to the Americans do they lose their minds?

Because quality.

$1:

The most popular difference between the two countries is the use of recombinant bovine somatotropin, or rBST. What is that? Well, Health Canada states that rBST is a synthetic version of a naturally occurring growth hormone. It is approved for use in the USA to increase the production of milk in dairy cattle, but is illegal in Canada. Why is this illegal for use in Canada? Health Canada determined that it did not pose a health risk to humans, but they also determined that it had negative effects on the health and welfare of cows.

As well, our maximum Somatic Cell Count (SCC) is also lower than the American standard. What is a SCC? It’s the total number of cells per milliliter in milk. Primarily, SCC is composed of leukocytes, or white blood cells, that are produced by the cow’s immune system to fight an inflammation. It’s a way we measure milk quality. For example, a reduced count of SCC is associated with better quality milk. Often if the count is high, it means the cow might be sick. Our maximum allowable is 400,000. Our provincial average is well below this maximum at 205,000. In Canada, each load of milk is tested to ensure it’s below that standard. In the USA, the national standard is 750,000, but the export standard is 400,000.

https://albertamilk.com/ask-dairy-farme ... ican-milk/

[peck420]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

But riddle me this. Why do some people champion globalization in all forms and facets yet when it comes to things like giving a small piece of the dairy pie to the Americans do they lose their minds?

Immediately perishable items do not handle globalization well.

That is pretty much it.

Find a way to transport milk within it's perish time frames, for the same rate as current ground transport...most would probably be open to the idea.

Tell some one to just pay more, or accept crappier products though...kind of where we are stuck.

Shit, if the transportation bit ever gets sorted, I will happily drink milk from wherever it is best situated for production.

Truth be told, let's all be honest here, if Trump and Trudeau sat down like adults (zero rhetoric, closed door trade negotiations with industry reps/government only), this probably doesn't make much of a splash. Give and take, with remediation for interim, until full implementation.

How it was approached kind of doomed it for this round.

[herbie]

3.5% isn't gonna kill us. They aren't forcing us to buy it, just to allow them to increase allowable market share. They still have to SELL us on it.

Here's one huge buyer who just ain't interested. Others will follow.
A&W Canada cuts processed cheese from menu

The patent and copyright extension is far worse. The informing the US of other trade deals not so much. So we inform them we're doing a deal with China, get any possible points of concern out in the open beforehand.

[BeaverFever]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

You won't hear me say this often but Kudos to the CBC. They went to a place I was surprised to see them go:

Buried behind the cows and cars: key changes in NAFTA 2.0

I actually learned stuff from the CBC. The world never stops surprising.

Ironically the first 2 items in that list are prime examples if Trum’s corporatism that were forced on us: extending corporations’ control over intellectual property and prescription drug patents.

[BeaverFever]

herbie herbie:

3.5% isn't gonna kill us. They aren't forcing us to buy it, just to allow them to increase allowable market share. They still have to SELL us on it.

I doubt you’ll have a choice or even know when you’re consuming it. It’ll probably just go straight from the US farm to the same Canadian dairy processors the Canadian farmers use and it’ll all just get mixed together. Once milk from a specific farmer has passed quality control at the processing plant it just gets mixed in with the rest in giant holding tanks before being pasteurized and dispensed into cartons and bags under brands you would recognize . A carton of milk probably contains milk from dozens of cows from dozens of different farms . Now some of those cows will be American.

Most of it will probably end up in milk products like butter, cheese, yogurt, powdered milk, condensed milk, etc. or industrial ingredients used in manufactured food products rather than actual milk itself.

[BartSimpson]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

You won't hear me say this often but Kudos to the CBC. They went to a place I was surprised to see them go:

Buried behind the cows and cars: key changes in NAFTA 2.0

I actually learned stuff from the CBC. The world never stops surprising.

The bit about ending the grocery store monopoly for BC wines is fair. Both of the grocery stores I go to and Costco have BC wines...Nugget Market has a whole section for BC wines. It's only fair to open up shelf space for non BC wine.

[BeaverFever]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Some people don't agree with the Dairy Board's claim that they will be destroyed by this 3.5% inroad made by the Americans. As the matter of fact the author claims that our Dairy Board is a Canadian Made Cartel who by using a 300% Tariff on dairy has effectively made the Canadian consumer a hostage to it's price fixing.

$1:

Canada’s supply management system for dairy is no longer defensible
MARTHA HALL FINDLAY
SPECIAL TO THE GLOBE AND MAIL
PUBLISHED AUGUST 18, 2017
UPDATED AUGUST 21, 2017

Martha Hall Findlay is President and CEO of the Canada West FoundationU.S. President Donald Trump has made it clear: Dairy is high on the U.S. agenda for NAFTA. And Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland has also made it clear that this government is committed to protecting supply management.

Three of the top-six milk-producing states in the United States – Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania – helped hand Mr. Trump his victory in November. Key Republicans hail from the U.S. dairyland, including Paul Ryan. And it's not just Republicans – there is substantial Democratic congressional support for U.S. dairy as well.

But for the North American free-trade agreement, our main negotiating challenge is this: The United States has a legitimate complaint. We continue to defend a system, at significant cost to consumers and to other parts of our economy, that is no longer defensible.

Our made-in-Canada cartel, based on high-price fixing, production control and extremely high tariffs, is the sick cow of global agricultural trade. The wealthy and powerful dairy, poultry and egg lobby has been able to engage in behaviour that for everyone else would be illegal.

In recent years Australia, New Zealand – and yes, the United States – have either eliminated or drastically reduced dairy subsidies, and taken advantage of growing global opportunities for their dairy products – leaving Canadian dairy behind to stagnate, limited to our own small market. But what are we protecting? The small number of dairy farmers left in Canada are, on average, multimillionaires. It's not surprising that they want – and spend a lot of money lobbying hard – to keep the system that has made them rich, but which costs consumers and most other parts of our economy. What we need are some politicians with courage.

The evidence for reform is overwhelming. With an appropriate transition plan (which the Canada West Foundation has proposed), liberalization can be a big win for Canada – ironically, for the dairy sector, too. Which means that these NAFTA negotiations offer a tremendous win-win opportunity.

Unfortunately, we still hear politicians repeating the dairy lobby's false and misleading talking points.

But these critical trade negotiations are no place for "alternative facts."

"Canadian prices aren't that high." Nonsense, of course they are – that's why we have tariffs ranging up to 300 per cent.

"We can't compete with the heavily subsidized U.S. dairy producers." Note that this contradicts the first position. But in recent years, the United States has dramatically reduced its own subsidization of dairy – and U.S. dairy is now exporting more and more around the world, leaving us behind.

"The U.S. maintains a large surplus in dairy trade with Canada." Between 2010-16, U.S. exports into Canada of ultrafiltered milk increased tenfold – the Americans developed this new dairy-protein product to be used in processing butter and cheese, but which was not covered by the high-tariff rules. Canadian processors increased their purchases of the cheaper product from the United States.

Under pressure from the dairy lobby, Canada has reacted, arguably in breach of international trade rules, to displace these cheaper U.S. imports with heavily subsidized pricing of milk for processing, to great hue and cry from the United States. We don't sell to the United States (or Mexico for that matter) by choice – our inflated prices aren't competitive.

"Supply management 'protects' the family farm." Not only is this false, the opposite is true. In Canada, the rate of consolidation has actually been higher – yes, higher – in the supply-managed dairy, poultry and egg sectors, than in most other agricultural sectors. Whereas in the 1970s, there were approximately 145,000 dairy producers, there are now barely more than 9,000.

"Supply management helps 'Canadian agriculture.'" Wrong again. It actually hurts the majority of Canadian farmers, including beef, pork, grain, oilseed and pulse producers, who would benefit from more global trade. Supply management unfairly protects only dairy, poultry and eggs – a mere 6 per cent of Canadian farmers.

"Without supply management, we'll get U.S. milk produced with growth hormones." The cartel structure has nothing to do with food safety. Some U.S. dairies do use artificial hormones for their herds – just as, by the way, most Canadian beef producers do. But for the Canada-European Union Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA), Europe insisted that beef coming from Canada be hormone-free. Canada could do the same for U.S. milk.

"It is not a government subsidy." Government regulation protects the cartel, ensuring a subsidy that is paid for by all Canadians via artificially high dairy prices. All of the international trade authorities, including the World Trade Organization, have confirmed that it is indeed a subsidy, and a very significant one at that.

"We can't compete with our colder climate." It defies logic to claim that the climate in southern Quebec is different from immediately across the border in New York or Vermont. Most of Wisconsin is farther north than Toronto.

"It doesn't affect Canada's trade negotiations – see how many trade deals we've signed?"

Of course we have signed trade deals, but in protecting supply management we have always had to give on other things. As we engage in these all-important NAFTA negotiations, it is critically important to recognize that every trade negotiation is exactly that – a negotiation, with give and take. What are we willing to sacrifice this time?

NAFTA is a huge win-win opportunity to do what's right domestically and increase our leverage for other issues important to Canada. And the Trudeau government can blame the Americans.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report- ... e36029788/


Which is exactly what happened. But now that the bubble has been bust, I fully expect other countries who subsidize considerably less to demand access to our dairy markets, without the 300% tariffs.

But riddle me this. Why do some people champion globalization and it's purveyors in all forms and facets yet when it comes to things like giving a small piece of our dairy pie to the Americans do they lose their minds?

The US dairy industry is among the most heavily subsidized in the world and its become completely dysfunctional since they abandoned supply management for their market price +subsidy model. Their domestic market is completely flooded and the farmers only choice is to perpetuate the viscous cycle by producing more and more of a product that becomes less and less valuable the more it is produced.

[fifeboy]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

But riddle me this. Why do some people champion globalization in all forms and facets yet when it comes to things like giving a small piece of the dairy pie to the Americans do they lose their minds?

Because quality.

$1:

The most popular difference between the two countries is the use of recombinant bovine somatotropin, or rBST. What is that? Well, Health Canada states that rBST is a synthetic version of a naturally occurring growth hormone. It is approved for use in the USA to increase the production of milk in dairy cattle, but is illegal in Canada. Why is this illegal for use in Canada? Health Canada determined that it did not pose a health risk to humans, but they also determined that it had negative effects on the health and welfare of cows.

As well, our maximum Somatic Cell Count (SCC) is also lower than the American standard. What is a SCC? It’s the total number of cells per milliliter in milk. Primarily, SCC is composed of leukocytes, or white blood cells, that are produced by the cow’s immune system to fight an inflammation. It’s a way we measure milk quality. For example, a reduced count of SCC is associated with better quality milk. Often if the count is high, it means the cow might be sick. Our maximum allowable is 400,000. Our provincial average is well below this maximum at 205,000. In Canada, each load of milk is tested to ensure it’s below that standard. In the USA, the national standard is 750,000, but the export standard is 400,000.

https://albertamilk.com/ask-dairy-farme ... ican-milk/

Pus

[rickc]

peck420 peck420:

16 year expiration...good buy any long term investment any time there is so much as a political tremor anywhere in NA.

Increased US market access to dairy, chickens, turkeys, eggs, and wines. No written guarantees of subsidy reduction by the US. Now we have to pay to play for food, just like all the other idiots subsidizing their markets by BILLIONS per year.

No guarantees on "national security tariffs", which, thanks to the leadership fail on our side, will be the normal "let's negotiate openers". All at the expense of the consumer...yay!

IP protectionism increased. Fuck that every single smart person says that this will slow innovation, which we already starting to lose to Asia, nope...greed is more important than the future.

Potential for mandatory US oversight and final say over future trade deals.

For what? So that 100,000 auto workers can stay 'employed' in an industry that is already saying that this is the high point for employment? Fed's gave it all up to keep a dying breed on life support a little longer. That is not the move a leader makes, that is a follower. Leaders plan for the future, they don't sink the ship to save the past.

You do not like the deal, I get that. You seem pissed, I get that too. I am not going to try to change your mind on the deal, I just want to debate a few points that you are bringing up. You state that the feds are giving it all away so 100,000 auto workers can stay employed. I think that you are downplaying the numbers.
https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/auto-auto.nsf/eng/home
The government of Canada puts the direct jobs in the auto industry at 120,000 in 2015. The industry creates an additional 400,000 jobs. There are foundries casting parts, machine shops machining parts, plastic injection molding plants creating parts, fabric and leather shops producing seats, carpets, and headliners. CN Rail and numerous trucking lines hauling parts, and finished products. The automotive industry is huge in Canada. You state that it is a dying breed on life support. Exactly where are these jobs going? Are we not going to be driving motor vehicles in the near future? Automation and robotics have cut jobs in the auto plants to the bone and then some. There is not a lot of room for further job cuts in the plants.

By contrast only 18,805 people work in the area of dairy farm operations. How many of those workers are temporary foreign workers?
http://dairyinfo.gc.ca/index_e.php?s1=c ... s2=aag-ail

I see countless Canadians on this forum talking about the superiority of Canadian cheese and milk. If its that much bettor than they are not going to buy the cheap crap, are they? I am no beer snob, but I do not drink Milwaukee"s best. I do not care how cheap it is, I do not want it. A wine connoisseur is not going to drink Boones Farm. I see talk of growth hormone, etc. In the states there are stores like whole foods where all their products are organic. Their prices are much higher than the other grocery chains, yet their lots are always full. If people want the best, than they will pay for it. Hyundai is not hurting Mercedes bottom line. You are complaining about Americans subsidizing the dairy industry. If the American taxpayer is subsidizing dairy products for your poor cousins in the Maritimes, why do you care? When I lived in New England I bought my gas and heating oil from Irving oil because they sold the cheapest gas and oil in the area. This was before the fracking/horizontal drilling craze. America was buying their oil from the middle east and South America. So was Irving oil. Irving oil was able to sell me finished products cheaper than American companies could. How did they do it? I do not know,and I do not care. Lets say for the sake of argument that old man Irving was shaking down the federal/ provincial governments for subsidies. Lets say he took a page out of the Bombardier playbook and threatened to lay off a bunch of hard working Canadians in a depressed area if his demands are not met. Lets say that Irving oil was selling me gas for $1 a gallon vs. American companies at $3 a gallon. Do you think that I would be on here bitching about stupid Canadians subsidizing my gas for me? HELL NO!!! They could drive it down to 10 cents a gallon. The lower the better. If Canadian taxpayers want to pay for my gas, than good! Works for me! You will not hear one peep from me, I promise.

My Canadian ex's family in the Maritimes was on welfare. They were dirt poor. They did not even own a car. They needed/still need some of those cheap subsidized eggs, milk, etc. They were in no position to demand the best. Their poverty was a much greater, present threat to their health than any growth hormone in the milk. I can pretty much guarantee that they will not be on here,( or any other forum for that mater) bitching about the Yanks subsidizing their groceries for them.

[N_Fiddledog]

If Trudeau & Freeland Got Such A Good Deal, Why Are All Their So-Called ‘Gains’ Things That Were Already In NAFTA?

$1:

The Trudeau Liberals, the elites, and the establishment media are in a full-court press to try and make the new USMCA look like a huge ‘win’ for the government, and give it the appearance of a brilliant strategic victory due to great negotiation.

The reality however is that such an interpretation breaks down under closer inspection.

In Question Period, Chrystia Freeland tried claiming that the Trudeau government somehow ‘won’ by getting the Chapter 19 dispute resolution in the agreement.

Except, Chapter 19 was already in the agreement.
It’s not anything new.

It’s the status quo.

The government also claimed ‘wins’ on the avoidance of auto tariffs, and not totally dismantling supply management.

But again, that’s the status quo.
What this means is that all the supposed ‘concessions’ by the U.S. to Canada aren’t concessions at all. They represent things staying as they are.

Meanwhile, the Trudeau government made actual concessions to the U.S.

They gave in on pharmaceuticals, they gave in on intellectual property, they gave in on dairy access, they gave in on ‘Buy American,’ and they gave in on steel tariffs.

Now, that means it’s simply wrong to say that the concessions from the Trudeau government were somehow equaled on the other side.

They weren’t.

It was one-sided.

And no matter how anyone tries to spin it, a deal that is the status quo + slightly worse for Canada cannot accurately be described as a win.
Perhaps that’s why the Liberal strategy in Question Period has been to avoid discussing actual details, and instead try attacking other parties. After all, if the Trudeau Liberals were truly proud of the deal they signed, why wouldn’t they be willing to talk about the substance of it?

Spencer Fernando

https://www.spencerfernando.com/2018/10 ... -in-nafta/

[N_Fiddledog]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

You won't hear me say this often but Kudos to the CBC. They went to a place I was surprised to see them go:

Buried behind the cows and cars: key changes in NAFTA 2.0

I actually learned stuff from the CBC. The world never stops surprising.

Ironically the first 2 items in that list are prime examples if Trum’s corporatism that were forced on us: extending corporations’ control over intellectual property and prescription drug patents.

Not a big fan of those 2 myself. We should have had some better negotiators.

[BartSimpson]

peck420 peck420:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

But riddle me this. Why do some people champion globalization in all forms and facets yet when it comes to things like giving a small piece of the dairy pie to the Americans do they lose their minds?

Immediately perishable items do not handle globalization well.

That is pretty much it.

Find a way to transport milk within it's perish time frames, for the same rate as current ground transport...most would probably be open to the idea.

Tell some one to just pay more, or accept crappier products though...kind of where we are stuck.

Shit, if the transportation bit ever gets sorted, I will happily drink milk from wherever it is best situated for production.

Truth be told, let's all be honest here, if Trump and Trudeau sat down like adults (zero rhetoric, closed door trade negotiations with industry reps/government only), this probably doesn't make much of a splash. Give and take, with remediation for interim, until full implementation.

How it was approached kind of doomed it for this round.

Wisconsin is one of the USA's largest producers of dairy and it's closer to Ontario than BC is yet BC is allowed to sell dairy to Ontario and Wisconsin is effectively shut out of that market.

So you were saying about transportation...?