[Thanos]

Since his entire policy is making enemies out of friends, and stoking up resurgent manifest destiny and feeding it a diet of steroids, anyone who isn't apprehensive about practically everything he's done is being quite foolish. I still think that we're in line for a possible Czechoslovakia 1938 treatment if things keep getting worse under this criminal.

[BartSimpson]

Thanos Thanos:

Since his entire policy is making enemies out of friends, and stoking up resurgent manifest destiny and feeding it a diet of steroids, anyone who isn't apprehensive about practically everything he's done is being quite foolish. I still think that we're in line for a possible Czechoslovakia 1938 treatment if things keep getting worse under this criminal.

Admit it, you're afraid that if Trump attacks Canada he's going to make you keep Quebec.

[herbie]

Oh FFS what are YOU going to do if you find a Chinese or Russian sub in the NW Passage?
After all it's the USA that claims its an international waterway. Maybe we should invite a couple just to show how ludicrous that position is to take.

[CharlesAnthony]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

herbie herbie:

$1:

Canada effectively punts its defense to the USA and has done so for years.

Fuck off with that line of shit. Repeat it often enough and still only the most vapid still believe it.

So when we send a sub through the Northwest Passage you interdict it with...what?
And if you can't stop us then you can't stop the Russians or the Chinese. And that means we end up patrolling your waters without your permission because you won't/can't do it yourselves.
That's called a punt.

No.
This entire bullshit about the north is misrepresenting the Canadian and American markets -- no thanks to the fake scientists who confuse the public.

SHORT VERSION: The Americans need Canadian sovereignty more than Canadians need American defense.

Canadians are not threatened by Russian or Chinese military subs.
REALITY: Americans are threatened by a Canadian open market to Russian energy and Chinese shipping vessels carrying lots of cheap commercial merchandise.

Sorry, Ameritards but your "defense" is actually your mercantile offense against us.

[Vbeacher]

Thanos Thanos:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

llama66 llama66:

That's what the MAGA's aren't bothering to notice. There's no one here that's said Canada shouldn't be doing more on defense. It's something that's bothered practically all of the CKA conservatives and centrists for years, including us being pissed off at Harper for half-assing the portfolio as much as Chretien, Martin, or Trudeau have. That being said, right or wrong, it's our decision. Not the Americans, and we can't lie down and be bullied by that evil & corrupt asshole the fools put into the White House. And especially not when he's treating defense spending and NATO membership as a protection racket instead of an alliance.

Did we or did we not sign an agreement? If we did, and are making no effort to live up to it, why is it wrong for the Americans, or any other member who HAS lived up to the agreement, to criticize us over it?

I mean, if you're going to have a military alliance whose purpose is to respond to or simply deter aggression based upon the joint resources of the members of that alliance, is it rude to expect the members to actually ensure they have something to contribute?

[Vbeacher]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

No Conservative PM has ever increased military spending in peacetime either so the usual right wing gasbags can cut their horseshit

What makes you think conservatives who want more money for the military were happy and uncritical of Harper?

[Vbeacher]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

rickc rickc:

If you say you are going to do something, than do it. You made the commitment to NATO, not the U.S. You agreed to it long before anyone was talking about Trump, so don't use him as an excuse to weasel out of your commitment.

You'll also notice the 2014 agreement was to increase spending to 2% over 10 years.

It's only been 4.

But the government's current plans are for us to increase spending to only 1.4% by 2026.

The combined defence budget of NATO nations has grown by $14.4 billion since 2016, with all but one of the countries increasing their spending and 26 contributing troops to NATO missions. “Sixteen — but not Canada — are on track to spend the NATO target of 2 per cent of their gross domestic product on defence by 2024,” notes a primer for the summit released by the Canadian Global Affairs Institute.
Canada, sturdy participant in combat and security operations, including a 12-year boots on the ground campaign in Afghanistan and a Canadian lieutenant-general who directed the air campaign that toppled the Gadhafi regime in 2011, is in the middling middle of defence spending, currently at 1.29 per cent of GDP, with a projected target of 1.4 per cent by 2026.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/07/10/i-hate-to-say-it-but-trump-is-right-about-canadas-military-spending.html

[Vbeacher]

bootlegga bootlegga:

First off, that agreement ends in 2024, so quit bitching about us missing a deadline that hasn't happened yet.

But the government has no plans to meet this deadline, nor even come close.

$1:

Second, it all depends on how you count defence spending. Yes, by GDP, Canada is in the bottom half. But in total defence dollars, we are sixth (table 2 below), at $20.3 Billion USD in 2017. Much ballyhooed Estonia spent $519 MILLION, while Greece spent $4.5 billion.

That's completely irrelevant. We spend more because we are a larger country, population wise

$1:

That $20.3 billion buys a lot more military hardware than Estonia or Greece, as well as the ability to deploy more often in support of NATO.

Again, raw dollars are not really an indication of ability. The majority of money in western military budgets is spent on salaries, benefits and pensions. All of these are vastly higher than in a place like, say Russia. And in addition, every piece of hardware we buy, from aircraft to tanks to ships to guns to boots, costs way, way more than the Russians or Chinese have to spend on theirs. So simply comparing dollars is pointless.

Canada is short of almost every basic piece of kit, from sleeping bags, which it had to beg, borrow or steal from members to equip the people going to Latvia and Mali, to trucks, armored vehicles, drones, communications gear, ships, planes, tanks... basically almost everything. And the Trudeau government has frozen all new capital spending until at least after the next election.

[Thanos]

Vbeacher Vbeacher:

Thanos Thanos:

That's what the MAGA's aren't bothering to notice. There's no one here that's said Canada shouldn't be doing more on defense. It's something that's bothered practically all of the CKA conservatives and centrists for years, including us being pissed off at Harper for half-assing the portfolio as much as Chretien, Martin, or Trudeau have. That being said, right or wrong, it's our decision. Not the Americans, and we can't lie down and be bullied by that evil & corrupt asshole the fools put into the White House. And especially not when he's treating defense spending and NATO membership as a protection racket instead of an alliance.

Did we or did we not sign an agreement? If we did, and are making no effort to live up to it, why is it wrong for the Americans, or any other member who HAS lived up to the agreement, to criticize us over it?

I mean, if you're going to have a military alliance whose purpose is to respond to or simply deter aggression based upon the joint resources of the members of that alliance, is it rude to expect the members to actually ensure they have something to contribute?

The 2% GDP was a verbal agreement on a long-term goal to be moved towards dependent on other national committments, not a signed contract. Do you want us to take orders from Trump, someone who's torn up every agreement he ever signed, as well as the trade agreements that American committed itself to?

I keep asking this and can't get a fucking answer from anyone - if Russia is harmless and misunderstood and our great fucking friend according to the Trumpers then why the hell do we need to double or triple our military spending at all? There is no other enemy out there whose actions would call for a boost in spending so if Russia isn't the reason to do so then who else are we re-arming ourselves against? China? Iran? North Korea? Venezuela? Who in the hell is the target for all this spending?

[Vbeacher]

Thanos Thanos:

The 2% GDP was a verbal agreement on a long-term goal to be moved towards dependent on other national committments, not a signed contract.

You're quibbling. Canada has not at any time indicated it did not agree to meet the 2% goal by 2024.

[Tricks]

Vbeacher Vbeacher:

That's completely irrelevant. We spend more because we are a larger country, population wise

So Poland, a country with three million more people, spends 30% less than we do in raw dollar amount, hits the 2% goal and should be looked at more favorably than us?

[Freakinoldguy]

Thanos Thanos:

The 2% GDP was a verbal agreement on a long-term goal to be moved towards dependent on other national committments, not a signed contract. Do you want us to take orders from Trump, someone who's torn up every agreement he ever signed, as well as the trade agreements that American committed itself to?

So you're saying CBC got it wrong and we only "verbally" agreed to increase our military spending to 2% of our GDP?

$1:

Canada signed on to an agreement to move "toward" the two per cent spending target at the 2014 NATO summit in Wales — a commitment that would cost Canadian taxpayers billions of dollars — to satisfy U.S. and NATO demands.

And, if what you're saying is true about taking orders from Trump why didn't we live up to our commitments before he got elected? Other Presidents before him made the same queries and for the record Obama said almost the same things about the delinquent NATO countries (of which Canada is included) who've been living off the US's good will for decades.

$1:

But NATO spending is an old obsession of American presidents. Trump's predecessor, Barack Obama, also chastised "free riders" for failing to spend a long-held target of two per cent of their national gross domestic products on the military.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump- ... -1.4742588

It's time for us to live up to our financial commitments or leave NATO and the umbrella of protection it affords us.

[herbie]

No it's time for the rest of NATO to stand up to Trump.
Need to increase it cuz you're planning a war asshole? Then fuck off and we'll spend to what the threat we perceive is.

[Thanos]

When you give in to a mobster they aren't satisfied. They just up the ante and come back wanting even more because they know you'll cave in to them again.

[rickc]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

rickc rickc:

If you say you are going to do something, than do it. You made the commitment to NATO, not the U.S. You agreed to it long before anyone was talking about Trump, so don't use him as an excuse to weasel out of your commitment.

You'll also notice the 2014 agreement was to increase spending to 2% over 10 years.

It's only been 4.

When someone sets time limits they usually have the lowest common denominator in mind. Kind of like when states give school districts so much time to get their students to meet minimum passing scores on mandated tests. Some schools could pass on day one with no additional prep whatsoever. Some schools need to almost stop teaching their actual curriculum, and spend all their time preparing their students for the exams. Which school would you rather have your children attend? When NATO set the time limit to meet the spending requirements they were thinking about some of the newer, poorer members. You know, former Warsaw Pact members where the quality of life is a lot worse off than you experience. We kind of expect original NATO members and G7 members to lead from the front, not the rear.

https://www.opencanada.org/features/is- ... t-in-nato/

This link states that not only is Canada NEAR the bottom of spending in NATO members period, but they are AT the bottom when it comes to G7 members. Those numbers should embarrass you. They should but they don't. That fact is evident. All one has to do is look at all the hand wringing, explaining away, bitching about Trump, etc., etc. on this forum to see that Canada has no plans to ever meet the spending requirements. You never had, you never will.