[BartSimpson]

xerxes xerxes:

I suppose the point would be lost on you both that Mandela was a source of inspiration for your president. But no. Everythingn Obama does is bad by default.

Before you go off here, go back and take a look at how Obama 'remembers' Mandela.

Did he use one of the thousands of available images of Mandela over the years or did he use one of his own pictures in an act of shameless self-promotion?

[Public_Domain]

[BartSimpson]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

In their minds, it just means he's "even more" of a terrorist collaborator.

I've just noted that Mandela was a reformed terrorist. I don't mind honoring the man for how he conducted himself in prison and for how he conducted himself after prison...but I object to the beatification of this person because his direct and indirect actions cost the lives of hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent civilians.

It's also notable that South Africa was very tolerant of Mr. Mandela.

Yes, tolerant.

I say this because had he committed his crimes in the US or even Canada in the early 1960's he'd have most certainly been put to death and we'd not be having this discussion right now.

So, sure, remember him for the second half of his life but don't whitewash the first half of it when he was a Communist-trained terrorist who killed indiscriminately and who used horrific methods of torture to murder his opponents.

Seriously, here we are on CKA grieving the horror of the possible fact that Paul Walker burned alive all while lionizing Nelson Mandela who inflicted just that same fate on possibly hundreds of people.

I've often wondered if Mandela's vaunted Truth and Reconciliation Commission wasn't just for making peace with the proponents of apartheid but it was also a way for Mandela to make peace with his own conscience.

[BeaverFever]

Xort Xort:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Horsehit.
Another gem from the "only the White race can be good guys crowd."

The only requirement to be a good guy, is to do good things.

The use of violence and terrorism while maybe effective, is not a good thing to do.

Feel free to remember Mr. Mandela as an effective leader, remember him as a popular head of state, remember him as someone that changed the world.



But don't try and rewrite history to make him into a good person that did good things.
~
Just as a side note, who here has studied the life of Nelson Mandela? Take it down a level, who here has even just read the wiki on Mandela and South Africa?

If you haven't at least read a recounting of his personal history and the history of his nation but you have made a comment that he was a great man or a good guy, then maybe you should ask yourself if your statement means anything.

So..youre a pacifist?? What's your opinion of George Washington then? He too led a band of militant revolutionaries and those militants murdered loyalists, etc. How about the Allied bombing of Dresden? Sherman's march to the sea?

Its true that are no real heroes, everyone has something about their past (true or exaggerated) with which they can be tarnished especially those involvedin with social or military conflict.

But my point is that there is a predictable pattern among certiain individuals on this site when it comes to whose alleged wrongdoings overshadow their achievements. Fuck, you cant ever say "Ghandi" on this site without the usual suspects coming out of the woodwork to allege that he was a pervert, sexist and/or racist, and claim that these are his defining charachteristics. Similarly,were supposed to believe that the most important think to know about MLK is apparently that he cheated on his wife and was affiliated with communists.

And yet marauding and zealous American revolutionaries, civil war soldiers, and various misdeeds throughout history on up through My Lai and Abu Ghraib are seemingly forgiven or at east blamed at the lowest level possible. We don't dare disparage those "heroes" right?

[DrCaleb]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Xort Xort:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Horsehit.
Another gem from the "only the White race can be good guys crowd."

The only requirement to be a good guy, is to do good things.

The use of violence and terrorism while maybe effective, is not a good thing to do.

Feel free to remember Mr. Mandela as an effective leader, remember him as a popular head of state, remember him as someone that changed the world.



But don't try and rewrite history to make him into a good person that did good things.
~
Just as a side note, who here has studied the life of Nelson Mandela? Take it down a level, who here has even just read the wiki on Mandela and South Africa?

If you haven't at least read a recounting of his personal history and the history of his nation but you have made a comment that he was a great man or a good guy, then maybe you should ask yourself if your statement means anything.

So..youre a pacifist?? What's your opinion of George Washington then? He too led a band of militant revolutionaries and those militants murdered loyalists, etc. How about the Allied bombing of Dresden? Sherman's march to the sea?

Its true that are no real heroes, everyone has something about their past (true or exaggerated) with which they can be tarnished especially those involvedin with social or military conflict.

But my point is that there is a predictable pattern among certiain individuals on this site when it comes to whose alleged wrongdoings overshadow their achievements. Fuck, you cant ever say "Ghandi" on this site without the usual suspects coming out of the woodwork to allege that he was a pervert, sexist and/or racist, and claim that these are his defining charachteristics. Similarly,were supposed to believe that the most important think to know about MLK is apparently that he cheated on his wife and was affiliated with communists.

And yet marauding and zealous American revolutionaries, civil war soldiers, and various misdeeds throughout history on up through My Lai and Abu Ghraib are seemingly forgiven or at east blamed at the lowest level possible. We don't dare disparage those "heroes" right?

Wish I could rep you for that. Too soon.

So this will have to suffice:

[Unsound]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Wish I could rep you for that. Too soon.

So this will have to suffice:

Got ur back

[Gunnair]

Unsound Unsound:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Wish I could rep you for that. Too soon.

So this will have to suffice:

Got ur back

Double.

[fifeboy]

Unsound Unsound:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Wish I could rep you for that. Too soon.

So this will have to suffice:

Got ur back

Me too!

[Gunnair]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Xort Xort:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Horsehit.
Another gem from the "only the White race can be good guys crowd."

The only requirement to be a good guy, is to do good things.

The use of violence and terrorism while maybe effective, is not a good thing to do.

Feel free to remember Mr. Mandela as an effective leader, remember him as a popular head of state, remember him as someone that changed the world.



But don't try and rewrite history to make him into a good person that did good things.
~
Just as a side note, who here has studied the life of Nelson Mandela? Take it down a level, who here has even just read the wiki on Mandela and South Africa?

If you haven't at least read a recounting of his personal history and the history of his nation but you have made a comment that he was a great man or a good guy, then maybe you should ask yourself if your statement means anything.

So..youre a pacifist?? What's your opinion of George Washington then? He too led a band of militant revolutionaries and those militants murdered loyalists, etc. How about the Allied bombing of Dresden? Sherman's march to the sea?

Its true that are no real heroes, everyone has something about their past (true or exaggerated) with which they can be tarnished especially those involvedin with social or military conflict.

But my point is that there is a predictable pattern among certiain individuals on this site when it comes to whose alleged wrongdoings overshadow their achievements. Fuck, you cant ever say "Ghandi" on this site without the usual suspects coming out of the woodwork to allege that he was a pervert, sexist and/or racist, and claim that these are his defining charachteristics. Similarly,were supposed to believe that the most important think to know about MLK is apparently that he cheated on his wife and was affiliated with communists.

And yet marauding and zealous American revolutionaries, civil war soldiers, and various misdeeds throughout history on up through My Lai and Abu Ghraib are seemingly forgiven or at east blamed at the lowest level possible. We don't dare disparage those "heroes" right?

Well said.

[Xort]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

So..youre a pacifist?? What's your opinion of George Washington then? He too led a band of militant revolutionaries and those militants murdered loyalists, etc. How about the Allied bombing of Dresden? Sherman's march to the sea?

Washington was a traitor and the reasons for the first American Civil War were not nearly as justified as most in the US believe. The number of loyalists non combatants that were killed was low and the objective wasn't terrorism; Trying to kill people in the most horrific ways possible. I think a non violent resolution would have been better. The British settled commonwealth nations did well enough after all.

Dresden was not justified, it did little to hurt German industry no matter what apologists say. It's not an action that should have been taken more so when the winners had the balls to put the other side on trial for their crimes during the war.

As for Sherman, he was an epic level troll and bastard.

I'm not a pacifist, I'm willing to accept that sometimes the use of force is the only viable option, but it must be used with caution and wisdom.

$1:

But my point is that there is a predictable pattern among certiain individuals on this site when it comes to whose alleged wrongdoings overshadow their achievements. Fuck, you cant ever say "Ghandi" on this site without the usual suspects coming out of the woodwork to allege that he was a pervert, sexist and/or racist, and claim that these are his defining charachteristics. Similarly,were supposed to believe that the most important think to know about MLK is apparently that he cheated on his wife and was affiliated with communists.

And yet marauding and zealous American revolutionaries, civil war soldiers, and various misdeeds throughout history on up through My Lai and Abu Ghraib are seemingly forgiven or at east blamed at the lowest level possible. We don't dare disparage those "heroes" right?

I blame people for what they did wrong no matter who they are. I expect people that use terrible methods to be judged for both what they achieved and how they achieved it.

All today I was hearing about Mandela, someone made a comparison between him and Lincoln, and I got some insight into why people idealize Mandela. They like to think that Mandela freed the 'slaves' and stopped the evil racists. What actually happened was unlike Lincoln, Mandela was thrown in jail before he could kick off a massive civil war.

The record of what happened after the 90s is up for a lot of debate as to who is at fault for what in SA. It's outside of my spheres of interest so I wouldn't care to offer an opinion on who is at fault. What I do know is that SA is much worse off now than it was in the 80s.

I can offer respect for Mandela changing his ways while in prison, but being a reformed terrorist doesn't change what happened, it only stops adding up more 'bad guy points' for not thinking what you did was evil.

[BRAH]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

In their minds, it just means he's "even more" of a terrorist collaborator.

No it's just another example of how Obama makes it about himself.

[Thanos]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

In their minds, it just means he's "even more" of a terrorist collaborator.

I've just noted that Mandela was a reformed terrorist. I don't mind honoring the man for how he conducted himself in prison and for how he conducted himself after prison...but I object to the beatification of this person because his direct and indirect actions cost the lives of hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent civilians.

It's also notable that South Africa was very tolerant of Mr. Mandela.

Yes, tolerant.

I say this because had he committed his crimes in the US or even Canada in the early 1960's he'd have most certainly been put to death and we'd not be having this discussion right now.

So, sure, remember him for the second half of his life but don't whitewash the first half of it when he was a Communist-trained terrorist who killed indiscriminately and who used horrific methods of torture to murder his opponents.

Seriously, here we are on CKA grieving the horror of the possible fact that Paul Walker burned alive all while lionizing Nelson Mandela who inflicted just that same fate on possibly hundreds of people.

I've often wondered if Mandela's vaunted Truth and Reconciliation Commission wasn't just for making peace with the proponents of apartheid but it was also a way for Mandela to make peace with his own conscience.

Mandela was a terrorist. And a traitor to. But he was in the exact same sense that George Washington was also a terrorist and a traitor. There's different degrees of terrorism anyway. What Washington and Mandela did was significant degrees less in severity and awfulness than what the Irish Republican Army terrorists regularly did, and multiple millions of degrees less worse than what Islamist terrorists do.

I could also point out that the government that Mandela rebelled against was significantly more brutal than the one Washington took up arms against. Compared to some of the things the Pretoria government did, like the Soweto massacres, the American colonists were treated positively benignly by the British monarchy. And, so far anyway (despite the obvious flight of whites and Indians/Pakistanis and educated black professionals from South Africa over the last 20 years), the side that had to give up power in SA was treated remarkably gently when compared to how the defeated British loyalists were by the new American continental government. There wouldn't be a Canada today if Americans hadn't behaved so excessively cruelly after their victory towards the loyalists and essentially drove them out of their homes. If it weren't for the likes of Washington and Jefferson, the US could have just as easily have descended into a blood soaked reign of terror like the one that happened in France after the King was deposed. Credit where credit is due, because it was the magnanimity and wisdom of Nelson Mandela that prevented the same sort of thing from happening in SA.

Keep in mind that I'm saying this as someone who believed that South Africa had a lot of admirable traits during the apartheid era. The police state in SA, as bad as it was, never got to the level of the tribal insanity and butchery that erupted in places like Uganda, Congo, the CAR, or Tanzania after the colonial powers departed. I was certainly never too impressed when it came to the idiotic way Western liberals and celebrities like Peter Gabriel, Bono, Jim Kerr, and the others kept comparing the place to the Third Reich. SA provided an important Cold War bulwark that kept southern Africa from being disrupted by Communism, and they built one hell of an impressive economy. What Mandela did though, in succeeding in preventing another Cambodia from happening and setting the stage for a mostly peaceful rearrangement of the power structure, was still goddamn remarkable.

[llama66]

Mandela did what had to be done.It can be argued The United States were founded by Terrorists, from the British point of view all the founding fathers were treasonous terrorists. because in reality a terrorist to us may be a freedom fighter to others. I don't agree with what Mandela did when he was young, but I also have never agreed with the concepts behind Apartheid. All persons should be treated as equals, that is the foundation for any fair and free society, fear-mongering and hate fostering should have no place in any government.

I think the work Mandela did in his later years really is what we need to draw the inspiration from, the helped dismantle a government based on racism. I agree that unfortunately others have now sullied the end product and South Africa is declining, I would hope the legacy of Mandela would serve to rekindle the need for conversation for true equality in South Africa.

In the realm of humanitarianism he was a true giant and one of last iconic 20th century leaders, truly a loss. He has truly left his mark not only on Africa, but on us all. Rest in peace.

[llama66]

Xort Xort:

Dresden was not justified, it did little to hurt German industry no matter what apologists say. It's not an action that should have been taken more so when the winners had the balls to put the other side on trial for their crimes during the war.

The Dresden raid was a response for the German bombing of Coventry, which was not a British industry centre but rather a major hospital centre, the raid was not designed to disrupt the German economy, it was to burn a German city to the ground, which is why they indulged such overkill on the raid. The other objective for the raid was to send a message. Dresden was a mission purely created out of spite.

[Xort]

llama66 llama66:

The Dresden raid was a response for the German bombing of Coventry, which was not a British industry centre but rather a major hospital centre, the raid was not designed to disrupt the German economy, it was to burn a German city to the ground, which is why they indulged such overkill on the raid. The other objective for the raid was to send a message. Dresden was a mission purely created out of spite.

So you agree with me that it was not justified, and that people who claim it was a valid military target because of it's industry are mistaken?