[N_Fiddledog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Incidentally the impact of wind farms on birds is miniscule compared to buildings and cats. And high-efficiency furnaces are used by just about every industrial facility for economic, not environmental reasons.

Screw industrial facilities. I want to tell you how I personally was almost screwed by the law regarding what you're calling "high efficiency furnaces".

So they brought out that law saying no more of the functional, don't-make-em-like-that-anymore furnaces could be sold in Canada. So I thought, well mine is old, so better get one of these new, enviro-wacko toys now, even though mine still works, because they have subsidies and they won't sell the good ones again after the end of the year anyway, so get one of these crappy ones while they're subsidized.

So I went to the subsidy website, and started jumping through the hoops. I jumped and I jumped. By the time I was finished jumping I looked at the computer screen and I wasn't sure if I was paying more or less.

I beat the scam though. There were still a few old reliable furnaces for sale. The way it worked if you could get one of those installed before the new law kicked in you were golden. So I did. While it was being installed I yacked with the workman. He agreed it was all a big scam, and told me even if I was one of those rare guys who qualified for the full subsidy it didn't matter, because - in my case at least - I would have to replace all the ventilation pipes, and have new holes cut into the walls and beams. Just the installation was going to cost thousands. No subsidy there.

OK, so now after telling you that story, and remembering all that I'm pissed off, so screw Suzuki and this BS talk of "high-efficiency enviro furnaces".

Oh, and on your wind turbine bird and bat slicers, tell me this. Why is it we need to shut down whole forests to save a nesting couple of spotted owls that weren't actually in danger, but when thousands of birds and bats including protected species from whooping cranes to condors are turned into bird burger, that's "miniscule". Wanna compare birds and bats to polar bears?

[Lemmy]

So, in summary, you've got a bug up your ass for all things environmental because the government wouldn't pay for your new furnace?

[N_Fiddledog]

Lemmy Lemmy:

So, in summary, you've got a bug up your ass for all things environmental because the government wouldn't pay for your new furnace?

And they're going to try to make me buy those toxic twisty bulbs. Taxes and regulatory nonsense have driven up the cost on everything. Come gas up at my pump if you want to see what I'm talking about. But not just that - try pricing food.

Agenda 21 is enviro inspired with its talking point word of sustainability so the incremental loss of private property rights, the drive to cultural homogeneity, common core education, and the drive to eliminate personal freedom are also on the list.

I'm all for clean air and water, and recycling, but that's easy. It's all the crap that snuck in with the basic needs on a political ticket I object to.

Oh...and I like birds and bats.

[Public_Domain]

[N_Fiddledog]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

One of my favourite quotes:

"If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed."
- Mark Twain

I like it too. So I imagine that means just you and me are cynical about that poll that appeared in all the major newspapers claiming Suzuki was the most admired Canadian?

No wait. There's one more of us.

http://ezralevant.com/2013/10/ezra-expo ... an-be.html

So it turns out the names in that Canadian popularity poll weren't actually chosen by Canadians. They weren't even chosen by an actual pollster. They were chosen by a liberal Public Relations agent named, I think Schachi Kurl. Does it matter? Did anybody else wonder why Wayne Gretzky wasn't a choice? The way the trick worked is explained better at the link, but basically it's a scam poll. It's a fix.

God, how worried to you have to be about your sinking popularity to get somebody to scam a poll for you?

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

bootlegga bootlegga:

the little people can make an impact.

Blanket generalizations like yours just let everyone keep doing what they're doing with no guilt.

If a billion people (the developed world) reduced their emissions each by a ton or two each year, then you're talking about billion or two tons of emissions gone. That's hardly nothing.

But we can do what we want - so many people coming onstream every day, wanting their little slice of consumer heaven, we're fucked. But if your guilt is assuaged by your little gestures you make, good for you.

And that's where your logic falls apart - the vast majority of those people "coming onstream" as you put it are NOT being born in Canada or the developed world, where, you are correct, they would consume huge amounts of water, energy and other resources.

Instead they are being born in some third world country, where while they might aspire to live just like us, odds are they can NOT, simply because they don't have the wealth to do so. Sure, there are a couple places like China and India where some of the masses can try and use as much as resources as us, but even then, it's only a 10, maybe 20 percent of the population - the rest live in the same conditions as many in sub-Saharan Africa.



This video notes that the average American uses 105 gallons of water a day, while those in Europe use 52, while the average person in Mozambique uses 1.3 gallons. I have little doubt if a similar video was made on oil/gas or electricity or food or just about any other resource, the stats would probably be similar.

That's why it's crucial for those in the developed world to reduce our consumption to alleviate the burden - because we use so much more than everyone else.

I agree we need to prevent others from emulating our poor example, but we have to lead here, otherwise we're hypocritical and telling them, "Do as we say, not as we do."

[andyt]

bootlegga bootlegga:

That's why it's crucial for those in the developed world to reduce our consumption to alleviate the burden - because we use so much more than everyone else.

I agree we need to prevent others from emulating our poor example, but we have to lead here, otherwise we're hypocritical and telling them, "Do as we say, not as we do."

We'll never reduce our consumption enough to make much of a difference. We'd have to radically change the way we live, and nobody is willing to do so. Hell we get urged to increase or at least maintain our consumption because otherwise our economy will collapse.

Meanwhile, those Mozambiquanas as busy improving their lives - ie increasing their per capita consumption as they earn more income. The trend, at least we hope, is for them to move toward our level of consumption, not us moving to theirs. And, as you say, they're reproducing. We're also reproducing in a way in Canada, have been told that a declining population spells economic disaster, so we just import those Mozambiquans, or if not them, others living more modest lives, so they can join our great pigfest.

I think we're just going to keep riding this handbasket until we have a major setback - ie a a drastic, sudden decline in human population. Here's hoping the survivors make it out the other side and do finally learn their lesson. But I fear that breeding and getting stuff are set pretty deep into our DNA.

[Zipperfish]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Screw industrial facilities. I want to tell you how I personally was almost screwed by the law regarding what you're calling "high efficiency furnaces".

So they brought out that law saying no more of the functional, don't-make-em-like-that-anymore furnaces could be sold in Canada. So I thought, well mine is old, so better get one of these new, enviro-wacko toys now, even though mine still works, because they have subsidies and they won't sell the good ones again after the end of the year anyway, so get one of these crappy ones while they're subsidized.

So I went to the subsidy website, and started jumping through the hoops. I jumped and I jumped. By the time I was finished jumping I looked at the computer screen and I wasn't sure if I was paying more or less.

Great, you go out there and tell everyone that they should to waste as much fuel as possible in their old furnaces. It might cost them a lot of money, but it's worth it because it'll make the gummint and the greenies mad.

Heck, I got a good idea--point your heating vents outside!!!! How much more inefficient can you get. You'll probably be making up for four or five high efficiency furnaces with that amount of waste.

Sometimes you are really just a foaming-at-the-mouth misanthrope, you know that.

$1:

Oh, and on your wind turbine bird and bat slicers, tell me this. Why is it we need to shut down whole forests to save a nesting couple of spotted owls that weren't actually in danger, but when thousands of birds and bats including protected species from whooping cranes to condors are turned into bird burger, that's "miniscule". Wanna compare birds and bats to polar bears?

I was just pointing out that the number of birds killed by wind turbines is vanishly small compared to other threats. And who are you kidding anyways? You don't give a shit about birds.

[N_Fiddledog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

And who are you kidding anyways? You don't give a shit about birds.

You're wrong. This kind of stuff bugs me.







Admittedly not as much as being mandated to pay thousands of dollars extra for a furnace system I'm not even sure works, or is going to solve problem 1 for anybody, to replace a system that has been time-tested and proven to be functional and no real problem at any time for anybody.

And hey if the new enviro toys are so damned good why do they need tricky mandates to kill off the competition to sell them. Wouldn't their superior functionality just kill off the old dinosaurs. They wouldn't though, because the old ones are superior, and that's why a mandate was necessary.

And speaking of polar bears...wasn't that the reason we had to turn society upside down and go more socialist, and why I have to worry I might not have enough money left to fill my gas tank - because of the fucking Polar Bears? Weren't they supposed die, or something? Last survey said their population was increasing, in the mean time there's hard evidence thousands of birds - I heard an estimate of a thousand a day - including rare birds are dying for real, so we can subsidize the buddies of lefty politicians as they pretend to solve the energy crisis. Also Kyoto almost drove the Orangutan to extinction.

[Lemmy]

Guess we should take all the windows out of our buildings. How about we keep the wind turbines and eradicate the cat population?

[N_Fiddledog]

When was the last time one of these came through your window?









And between Golden Eagles and cats which one should be worried? Yeah I know...you've got this tough cat, right? Now let's get serious. Put him up against a Golden Eagle and you can rename him Burp.

Look I get it. You don't care about protected or endangered species like Golden Eagles, Condors, Whooping Cranes, or Orangutans (no, I'm not saying they're being killed by wind turbine blades, that was Kyoto. Pay attention). Fine, but don't be wanting to cry on my shoulder about Polar Bears or other wildlife when that becomes convenient to your cause. And organizations like WWF can go piss up a rope with their global warming harming wildlife BS claims.

[Lemmy]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Look I get it. You don't care about protected or endangered species like Golden Eagles, Condors, Whooping Cranes, or Orangutans. Fine, but don't be wanting to cry on my shoulder about Polar Bears or other wildlife when that becomes convenient to your cause. And organizations like WWF can go piss up a rope with their global warming harming wildlife BS claims.

I don't give any more of a shit about polar bears (or birds) than you do. But I care a hell of a lot more about my kids and future grandkids than you yours.

[N_Fiddledog]

My family is not afraid of your Global Warming bogey-man.

What is it about you fools with your foolish faiths, that you think, because others don't share your faith, the heretics (in this case those observing the common sense of the actual science) need to be insulted and ground down until they do?

And yes I care about Polar Bears. I just happen to be paying attention to the actual science, and I know they're in no more danger from AGW than my progeny is.

[Zipperfish]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

You're wrong. This kind of stuff bugs me.

A natural has plant flare in New Brunswick last month killed some 7500 birds in one weekend last month. Beat that wind famrs! Never heard you go off on natural gas plants.

I'm not saying wind farms are great. You aren't going to extract that amount of energy from the environment without degrading it. It's just silly that you would consider wind farms so evil. You think nuclear power plants, coal plants, hydro, natural gas plants have no effect on the environment?

$1:

And hey if the new enviro toys are so damned good why do they need tricky mandates to kill off the competition to sell them. Wouldn't their superior functionality just kill off the old dinosaurs. They wouldn't though, because the old ones are superior, and that's why a mandate was necessary.

The principles used in high-energy furnaces are in use at virtually every industrial facility that produces heat and the environment has nothing to do with it. Their superior functionality has put single-stage boilers, heaters, evaporators, furnaces etc out of business. You couldn't sell one now.

You get everything mixed up. If you don't like the government mandating what kind of furnace you have to use, blame the government, not the fucking furnace.

$1:

And speaking of polar bears...wasn't that the reason we had to turn society upside down and go more socialist,

Go more socialist? Give yer head a shake, buddy. We have the most right-wing government ever in Ottawa, who have been in power for several years now, the last couple as a majority government. Doesn't reality mean anything to you?

[N_Fiddledog]

Yeah that natural gas flare in the fog thing...that was freaky.

$1:

The birds were drawn to the flame like moths, an extremely unusual event, according to Don McAlpine, the head of zoology at the New Brunswick Museum.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns ... -1.1857615

So what are we saying then? Because of this freaky incident we need to continue subsidizing these wind boondoggles that don't actually save the world from anything, and don't appear to do much more than slice and dice protected and endangered species of large birds, then we'll go off and do what? Brag about what big environmentalists we are, and weep over the story of the two headed fish they found around oil sands somewhere, and hope nobody googles to discover they find those things all over the place.

And I don't know what you're talking about as far as furnaces go, but I was talking about home furnaces. Why would you respond with talk of industrial furnaces? I dunno, but what the Hell. Yeah, you're right, industrial furnaces made some impressive improvements, and isn't it cool how industry became environmentally conscious in the west even before all the global warming regulations. It started back in the days of actual pollution. Western energy is now the environmental envy of places like China, and every time there's global warming talks now such places are trying to pressure us to give up our technology. Maybe we should, but thing is it shows that the technology has nothing to do with the global warming nonsense. It predates it.

And my old furnace worked fine. The old fashioned one I was able to sneak in before the deadline that the new untested-by-time ones had to be installed also works fine. If the enviro toys are any kind of improvement it has yet to be proven. I know the furnace guy I was yakkin with didn't think so. All I do know for sure is mine works fine.

And believe it or not, I haven't been asleep all these years. I know who is in power. Nevertheless the pressure of socialist policies, like toxic light bulb and furnace mandates doesn't stop. That's not free market. Free market would say if your crap is so much better than us, put us out of business by giving the people something they want more than what they got. Mandates are pussy, and Socialist. To tell you the truth Steven really disappointed me there, and I'm beginning to think maybe it's time to thank Steve for hanging in there as long as he did before he started to get corrupted by the red machine, and we conservatives should go looking for some fresh blood.