[Dragon-Dancer]

uwish uwish:

raydan raydan:

Crime in Canada, gun crime in particular, isn't that bad and we compare well to most countries. So let's stop the knee-jerking. There are places we could be putting put efforts... some communities and organized crime (including gangs) in particular.

Should there be a ban on handguns... no.
Open up at-large conceal/carry... no way.

I don't even like having someone with a pointy ended umbrella beside me, let alone a gun. Those that want to carry just want to compensate for something... what, I have no idea. If this isn't your case, I apologize... if it is, just admit it and we can move on.

the whole point of concealed carry is..you wouldn't know if the guy besides you is carrying. That's the point.

I don't see how that can be a deterrent at all. I could see how visibly armed security might be a mild deterrent to a petty criminal but most of those don't plan their crimes very thoroughly anyways. You think they'll even consider something they can't see?

[peck420]

uwish, your chart is flawed.

You have not taken into account the different crimes that are compiled by each nation as 'violent crime'.

In the US, 4 offences are listed under violent crime; murder, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.

In Canada, 21 offences are listed under violent crimes.

Now, since the US does not count Canada's Assault 1 or 'other assaults' as aggravated assualt, so we need to deduct that...-587.

The US does not count sexual assaults or statutory rape...only rape and attempt to rape, so we need to deduct sexual assault 1 and 'other sexual offences'...-71.

They don't count abduction...-1

That leaves Canada with a violent crime rate (by US metric) of: 271.

StatsCan 2007: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2008007/article/tbl/tbl02-eng.htm
FBI 2007: http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_01.html
FBI Forcible Rape definition: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime/rapemain.pdf
FBI Aggravated Assault definition: http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime/aggravatedassaultmain.pdf

I don't know what that will do to the slope, but we should be comparing apples to apples.

[saturn_656]

Dragon-Dancer Dragon-Dancer:

That being said you don't need a gun to hunt or trap.

I'm going to walk out on a well supported limb here and say you don't know much about hunting or trapping.

[uwish]

Peck..

You would also need this data for both 1992 and 2007 to be of any use in computing the slope. Since the actual value is not the key indicator but the DELTA (difference between the two) is the key indicator. So in theory, it would not matter, as long as when analyzing the US data the same combination of violent crimes was used in both years calculations.

I could go and get those numbers but like I said, it isn't the actual number that is the key indicator here. It's still a valid comparison since we are determining the difference in crime rate between each year(s) for each country. I would imagine, if you just think as a thought experiment that if the US included the same 21 violent offenses as Canada did, their overall numbers would be significantly larger however; the slope would likely not be much different since the same combination of violent crimes would be used for each of the years computed.

What would screw up this chart, is if they added or removed a category from their violent crimes index between the years in comparison. Then we could not compare the deltas.

[uwish]

Dragon-Dancer Dragon-Dancer:

uwish uwish:

raydan raydan:

Crime in Canada, gun crime in particular, isn't that bad and we compare well to most countries. So let's stop the knee-jerking. There are places we could be putting put efforts... some communities and organized crime (including gangs) in particular.

Should there be a ban on handguns... no.
Open up at-large conceal/carry... no way.

I don't even like having someone with a pointy ended umbrella beside me, let alone a gun. Those that want to carry just want to compensate for something... what, I have no idea. If this isn't your case, I apologize... if it is, just admit it and we can move on.

the whole point of concealed carry is..you wouldn't know if the guy besides you is carrying. That's the point.

I don't see how that can be a deterrent at all. I could see how visibly armed security might be a mild deterrent to a petty criminal but most of those don't plan their crimes very thoroughly anyways. You think they'll even consider something they can't see?

You may not see it but it does have an effect. If you look at Florida for example, and I use Florida because it was the first US state to introduce concealed carry permits in the Union, they saw a significant drop in violent crime in the first year.

I did have all that statistical data handy but I am not able to locate it here right now. Texas is another state that saw a large noticeable reduction in violent crime rates after CCW laws were introduced. The key was, the state actively advertised that this permit was now available and you could sign up for the training program.

The reason for the drop was due to CCW permits being issued, there was no other change in state law(s) that would result in such a drastic drop in these crime rates. I don't believe it was coincidence, the data is there and it is not disputable. You (and others) may not like it because if 'feels' bad, or you may believe that more guns = more crime but the stats just do not say that.

The US now has 15 years (+) of CCW laws to prove why there crime rate is dropping so rapidly (despite what you may believe from focused media reports). It does NOT however, explain why the US is in general a much more violent nation than any other western style democratic nation but it does explain why it is winning the race to become one of the safest nations in the Western world.

Ask the UK, AU and NZ (et al) how there firearms prohibition programs (in particular towards handguns) has seen a massive increase in violent crime rates. The data is public you can look it up for yourself.

[BeaverFever]

uwish uwish:

Peck..

You would also need this data for both 1992 and 2007 to be of any use in computing the slope. Since the actual value is not the key indicator but the DELTA (difference between the two) is the key indicator. So in theory, it would not matter, as long as when analyzing the US data the same combination of violent crimes was used in both years calculations.

I could go and get those numbers but like I said, it isn't the actual number that is the key indicator here. It's still a valid comparison since we are determining the difference in crime rate between each year(s) for each country. I would imagine, if you just think as a thought experiment that if the US included the same 21 violent offenses as Canada did, their overall numbers would be significantly larger however; the slope would likely not be much different since the same combination of violent crimes would be used for each of the years computed.

What would screw up this chart, is if they added or removed a category from their violent crimes index between the years in comparison. Then we could not compare the deltas.

Youre assuming that the 17 crimes omitted from the US data would follow the same trend as the the 4 that were included but their might not be perfect correlation, so the slope cant be assumed to remain constant.

[uwish]

no I am not, it would just reduce or increase the overall number, whether the rate was in the same trend is irrelevant. It would still work as long as the same number of crimes were included in each countries comparison.

[Dragon-Dancer]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

Dragon-Dancer Dragon-Dancer:

That being said you don't need a gun to hunt or trap.

I'm going to walk out on a well supported limb here and say you don't know much about hunting or trapping.

I love that line of non-argument. Just because I've never done it doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. This is the information age. Historically people have used everything from rocks and sharp pointy sticks on up to hunt so you can't say a gun is required.

very minorly edited wiki quotes very minorly edited wiki quotes:

Hunting is the practice of pursuing any living thing, usually wildlife or feral animals, for food, recreation, or trade. In present-day use, the term refers to lawful hunting, as distinguished from poaching, which is the killing, trapping or capture of the hunted species contrary to applicable law. The species which are hunted are referred to as game, and are usually mammals and migratory or non-migratory gamebirds.

Historical, subsistence, and sport hunting techniques can differ radically, with modern hunting regulations often addressing issues of where, when, and how hunts are conducted. Techniques may vary depending on government regulations, a hunter's personal ethics, local custom, hunting-equipment, and the animal being hunted. Often a hunter will use a combination of more than one technique. Laws may forbid sport hunters from using some methods used primarily in poaching and wildlife management.

Methods:
Baiting is the use of decoys, lures, scent, or food.

Battue involves beating animals into a killing-zone or ambush.

Beagling is the use of beagles in hunting rabbits, and sometimes in hunting foxes.

Beating uses beaters to flush out game and/or drive it into position.

Blind hunting or stand hunting is waiting for animals from a concealed or elevated position.

Calling is the use of animal noises to attract or drive animals.

Camouflage is the use of visual or odour concealment to blend with the environment.

Dogs may be used to course or to help flush, herd, drive, track, point at, pursue, or retrieve prey.

Driving is the herding of animals in a particular direction, usually toward another hunter in the group.

Flushing is the practice of scaring animals from concealed areas.

Glassing is the use of optics,such as binoculars, to more easily locate animals.

Glue is an indiscriminate passive form to kill birds.

Internet hunting is a method of hunting over the internet using webcams and remotely controlled guns.

Netting involves using nets, including active netting with the use of cannon nets and rocket nets.

Persistence hunting is the use of running and tracking to pursue the prey to exhaustion.

Scouting includes a variety of tasks and techniques for finding animals to hunt.

Solunar theory says that animals move according to the location of the moon in comparison to their bodies, and is said to have been used long before this by hunters to know this times that are best to hunt their desired game.

Spotlighting or shining is the use of artificial light to find or blind animals before killing.

Stalking or still hunting is the practice of walking quietly in search of animals, or in pursuit of an individual animal.

Tracking is the practice of reading physical evidence in pursuing animals.

Trapping is the use of devices such as snares, pits, deadfalls to capture or kill an animal.

[OnTheIce]

Dragon-Dancer Dragon-Dancer:

I love that line of non-argument. Just because I've never done it doesn't mean I don't know anything about it. This is the information age. Historically people have used everything from rocks and sharp pointy sticks on up to hunt so you can't say a gun is required.

[saturn_656]

Dragon-Dancer Dragon-Dancer:

I love that line of non-argument. Just because I've never done it doesn't mean I don't know anything about it.

Just because you Google'd something doesn't mean you know anything about it.

$1:

Historically people have used everything from rocks and sharp pointy sticks on up to hunt so you can't say a gun is required.

If you're hunting big game the only useful alternative to a firearm is a crossbow. Not to mention that in most jurisdictions (this is true in Ontario) using anything other than a firearm or high powered bow to hunt big game is illegal.

But you're welcome to come over Northwestern Ontario for the fall bear hunt. I'll set you up with a sharp pointy stick and a few rocks, and you can show me how it's done champ!

[uwish]

well lets put it this way then, there are 1000X more hunting tags issued each year in each province than there are trappers licenses. You don't hunt large game without a bow or firearm.

/nuff said