[andyt]

But they'll be right on budget for the subway, right?

The Canada line from Richmond to Vancouver had a huge uptake in riders vs what was expected. People said it wouldn't be used because the traffic density just wasn't there for that route - but it did much better than expected. It's just way more convenient to commute via Skytrain than by car, a lot cheaper too unless your employer pays your parking.

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

I wonder how you guys do it. If we get snow or even just ice, the Skytrain seems to always have some sort of problem or another. Guess the designers never figured on Vancouver getting any snow. How does your LRT send power to the units? Skytrain uses an electrified third rail, and I think a lot of the problems come from that.

The LRT here (and Calgary) uses an overhead wire instead of a rail on the ground - so maybe that's why it works so well in winter weather.

The worst I've ever seen was during a blizzard in 1989 when we had freezing rain that turned into snow - the wire vaporized it upon contact - creating an eerie blue glow - but there was no shutdown of the system.

[OnTheIce]

bootlegga bootlegga:

andyt andyt:

I wonder how you guys do it. If we get snow or even just ice, the Skytrain seems to always have some sort of problem or another. Guess the designers never figured on Vancouver getting any snow. How does your LRT send power to the units? Skytrain uses an electrified third rail, and I think a lot of the problems come from that.

The LRT here (and Calgary) uses an overhead wire instead of a rail on the ground - so maybe that's why it works so well in winter weather.

The worst I've ever seen was during a blizzard in 1989 when we had freezing rain that turned into snow - the wire vaporized it upon contact - creating an eerie blue glow - but there was no shutdown of the system.

I'm sure that's the best case, I can see the power in the ground becoming an issue when it's cold.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

Secondly, Beaver what do you say to all those businesses that are now cut off from traffic from the opposite side of the street?

Since you can't turn left except at designated lights, businesses are now going to be cut off from 1/2 of the drive-by traffic.

Well first off, these particular proposed LRT routes will run along one side of the street, not down the middle. But to answer your question more generally, we may finally get an answer to the age-old riddle: why did the suburbanite cross the road?

This is Toronto. No person in their right mind expects to find front-door parking infront of their store of choice. Even without LRT or streetcar, most people have to park a block away or more. Motorists who just can't bear the unspeakable burden of making a U-turn at the next light have an easy alternative: just park on the right-hand side of the street, get reacquainted with the 2 foot-shaped apendages dangling from their atrophied meatsticks and...wait for it...walk cross the street! Brilliant, isn't it?

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

This isn't a second rate solution - it's a 21st century solution as opposed to the early 20th century one you and Ford want.

It's not billions - it's one billion for this line. Your subway plan is the one that would cost billions.

And you don't think FIVE surface train lines won't alleviate traffic more than ONE subway line. Really? I'd say your opinion on this issue is the one that makes little sense.

And you think this project will come in on budget? The last time Toronto tried a project like this, they came in 100% over budget and 2 years late.

You and the others who support LRT have provided zero information on how this will increase ridership and decrease traffic.

Remember, these lines aren't going into areas that have no transit so it's not like a flock of people will suddenly start using the LRT.

Even if this LRT line goes 50% over budget, that's an extra $500 million - similar overruns on the subway you and Ford want to build would be $2.5 BILLION. Again, I know which I'd prefer to pay for as a taxpayer.

How will this decrease traffic? Two ways - one, people will give up their cars and use the LRT instead (which has been the case around North America), which is cheaper than driving and parking, as well as faster than the bus. It will also reduce traffic along Sheppard by forcing those who continue to drive it by choosing other routes.

Need proof - just do some research about LRT and how it increases ridership. Edmonton expanded its LRT last year into suburb that, like Sheppard, already had bus service. Ridership on the LRT jumped by 30% (from 74,400 to 93,600). Other cities around the world (previously listed) have seen similar increases.

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/ ... -move.aspx

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

andyt andyt:

I wonder how you guys do it. If we get snow or even just ice, the Skytrain seems to always have some sort of problem or another. Guess the designers never figured on Vancouver getting any snow. How does your LRT send power to the units? Skytrain uses an electrified third rail, and I think a lot of the problems come from that.

The LRT here (and Calgary) uses an overhead wire instead of a rail on the ground - so maybe that's why it works so well in winter weather.

The worst I've ever seen was during a blizzard in 1989 when we had freezing rain that turned into snow - the wire vaporized it upon contact - creating an eerie blue glow - but there was no shutdown of the system.

I'm sure that's the best case, I can see the power in the ground becoming an issue when it's cold.

Hopefully Toronto will opt for a system that uses overhead wires instead of electricified rails on the ground - otherwise, I agree, there could be potential service issues during winter.

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Well first off, these particular proposed LRT routes will run along one side of the street, not down the middle. But to answer your question more generally, we may finally get an answer to the age-old riddle: why did the suburbanite cross the road?

Incorrect.

They will run down the centre of the street, no against the curb.

From Toronto.ca:

$1:

We are recommending that the bus service on Sheppard Avenue East, east of Don Mills Road, be replaced with modern electrically-powered light rail vehicles operating in dedicated transit lanes, at street level in the centre of Sheppard Avenue East,

And Eglinton; http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects ... _part1.pdf

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

This is Toronto. No person in their right mind expects to find front-door parking infront of their store of choice. Even without LRT or streetcar, most people have to park a block away or more. Motorists who just can't bear the unspeakable burden of making a U-turn at the next light have an easy alternative: just park on the right-hand side of the street, get reacquainted with the 2 foot-shaped apendages dangling from their atrophied meatsticks and...wait for it...walk cross the street! Brilliant, isn't it?

Spoken like a true urbanite. You do know that we're talking about lines in the SUBURBS of Toronto....although it's still part of Toronto? I know it's amazing to consider for people like you, but people do live both East and West of the downtown core.

In Scarborough, you don't have to park a block away or more, most retail is located in a plaza or shopping centre with ample parking. There is zero street level parking on Eglinton in Scarborough.

Also, if you live down one of these side streets that run off of Eglinton or Sheppard, you have to drive past your street to the next break and make a u-turn at a special u-turn location.

[OnTheIce]

bootlegga bootlegga:

How will this decrease traffic? Two ways - one, people will give up their cars and use the LRT instead (which has been the case around North America), which is cheaper than driving and parking, as well as faster than the bus. It will also reduce traffic along Sheppard by forcing those who continue to drive it by choosing other routes.

I'm just not convinced that the speed difference is going to be fast enough to pull people in. Saving a few minutes may bring in a few, but I don't see it being a car buster of an idea.

bootlegga bootlegga:

Need proof - just do some research about LRT and how it increases ridership. Edmonton expanded its LRT last year into suburb that, like Sheppard, already had bus service. Ridership on the LRT jumped by 30% (from 74,400 to 93,600). Other cities around the world (previously listed) have seen similar increases.

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/ ... -move.aspx

I'm sorry boots, but what works in other Cities doesn't compare.

For example, the Edmonton LRT runs considerably faster. 1000m to 2500m stop spacing in the new suburb area and a 40km/h average speed.

That's less than 1/3 the stops of Toronto suburbs and almost double the speed.

The urban LRT in Edmonton is more comparable and even then, it still operates faster and has less stops.

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

How will this decrease traffic? Two ways - one, people will give up their cars and use the LRT instead (which has been the case around North America), which is cheaper than driving and parking, as well as faster than the bus. It will also reduce traffic along Sheppard by forcing those who continue to drive it by choosing other routes.

I'm just not convinced that the speed difference is going to be fast enough to pull people in. Saving a few minutes may bring in a few, but I don't see it being a car buster of an idea.

It won't get everyone out of their cars - but it will get a lot out of them.

You'll probably never get someone out of a BMW or a duallie pick-up and onto the LRT. But you will get more middle class people, especially those living along the route. In fact, the denser the area the LRT travels though, the more riders you'll get.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Need proof - just do some research about LRT and how it increases ridership. Edmonton expanded its LRT last year into suburb that, like Sheppard, already had bus service. Ridership on the LRT jumped by 30% (from 74,400 to 93,600). Other cities around the world (previously listed) have seen similar increases.

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_government/ ... -move.aspx

I'm sorry boots, but what works in other Cities doesn't compare.

For example, the Edmonton LRT runs considerably faster. 1000m to 2500m stop spacing in the new suburb area and a 40km/h average speed.

That's less than 1/3 the stops of Toronto suburbs and almost double the speed.

The urban LRT in Edmonton is more comparable and even then, it still operates faster and has less stops.

Toronto's LRT will not be like the existing Edmonton LRT - it will be like other more modern systems (like the ones in the pdf I posted in the Hudak-Ford thread a few weeks back).

http://www.edmonton.ca/transportation/2 ... tation.pdf

In fact, the system Toronto is going to build is the same one that Edmonton will use on all future lines that do not tie into the existing system (in the near term, the West and Southeast lines). Instead of the high floor system we currently have;



We'll switch to this;



And I have no doubt it will be even more successful than the current system we have...

[OnTheIce]

bootlegga bootlegga:

It won't get everyone out of their cars - but it will get a lot out of them.

You'll probably never get someone out of a BMW or a duallie pick-up and onto the LRT. But you will get more middle class people, especially those living along the route. In fact, the denser the area the LRT travels though, the more riders you'll get.

But why wouldn't those people be using transit already?

[EyeBrock]

I remember an idea for a light rail system to run alongside or mixed in with the QEW/Gardiner?

That would be a LRT that I could go with. The Metrolink in my old haunt of Manchester used old rail lines that were already there or needed updating and this cut down on costs etc. The issues are not so much transit actually in Toronto, it's getting in or out of TO that sucks.

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Incorrect.

They will run down the centre of the street, no against the curb.

So it would seem. That's a change. Ah well.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

In Scarborough, you don't have to park a block away or more, most retail is located in a plaza or shopping centre with ample parking. There is zero street level parking on Eglinton in Scarborough.

Also, if you live down one of these side streets that run off of Eglinton or Sheppard, you have to drive past your street to the next break and make a u-turn at a special u-turn location.

Well, it's not like area residents are going to stop shopping or drive even further just to avoid a U-turn. Most destination businesses like the big-box malls on Eg E and established restaurants will likely be fine because people are specifically going to those locations.

To be fair, I'll admit that SOME "pop-in" businesses like gas stations, Tim Hortons, McD's etc will lose business to local competitors located on the right-hand side of the street or closer to a median crossing point. But that's not a net subtraction from the neighbourhood economy. And on the plus side, the LRT will bring new residential development that will increase comercial and residential property values and bring new customers to the area. The St. Clair streetcar line did just that, and cleaned out a lot of derelict and abandoned storefronts.

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

It won't get everyone out of their cars - but it will get a lot out of them.

You'll probably never get someone out of a BMW or a duallie pick-up and onto the LRT. But you will get more middle class people, especially those living along the route. In fact, the denser the area the LRT travels though, the more riders you'll get.

But why wouldn't those people be using transit already?

Because right now, a lot of them can drive down Sheppard in their car. Based on reportedly heavy traffic flows down this street already, it'll only get worse once two lanes are taken out for the LRT.

However, as traffic increases so does the commute, so many will say, screw this hour long drive to work every morning, I'll take the LRT in 20 minutes instead. Tack on higher prices for gas and parking, and suddenly the LRT becomes a deal, both in time and money to the average person.

[andyt]

That was certainly the case when the Canada line was built here. The commute from Richmond wasn't all that bad, but once an efficient way to move people downtown was provided, people took to it in droves. Which of course meant less traffic for those who chose to continue using their cars. Win win.

The other major transit route is from Surrey. It would be fun to shut down Skytrain from Surrey for a week and watch the madness. All of a sudden the drivers who complain that they are subsidizing the transit riders would get very quiet.

But all this talk of LRT has got me hot. It sounds like Vancouver has opted for technology that can't move as many people per hour as LRT, cost 3 times as much to build, and is vulnerable to the kind of winter weather we get here. Those bloody right wingers, it's all their fault cause they wanted to show off.