[Gunnair]

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

Brenda Brenda:

I couldn't agree more. And there ARE women like that. And I can only aplaud them. Yet, she shouldn't be forced to keep it(or put it up for adoption), she should have the choice.

for clarity, I'm not a fan of any law that would force a woman to keep a baby.

However, I would like to see more conversation about woman keeping it, without a pro-choicer automatically painting the idea as wrong. a good example is Derby's recent post, he just had to bring up religous zealots that are pro-life. i don't see any religious zealots here. And based on recent confessions, I don't see any pro-lifers, either. So what was the point of his post? I'm concerned that polarized posts like Derby's post will choke off any sort of discussion that might lead to a pro-choicer considering to keep their baby.

Generally, I would agree with you. Frankly, I don't consider a fetus a baby, and therefore, don't particularly care whether a woman has an abortion or not. The one point about choice though that always bugs me, if a woman has that kind of choice, i.e. the choice to terminate a fetus, there's some irony involved in that the same woman deciding to keep the fetus, can drink, smoke, and shoot up themselves silly... at least to a point.

So when does the fetus become a baby for the pro-choice person, with all of the responsibilities there in?

[Wally_Sconce]

By the time the pregnancy is detected at approx 4 weeks, most have a heart beat that is independant of the mother's heart beat, although the baby is still very dependant in other ways.

[Brenda]

As far as I know, you are lucky if you can detect it (even with a vaginal echo) at 7 weeks...

[Wally_Sconce]

Ok, I'll take that back until I can find a link to back it up...

[Wally_Sconce]

Looks like I was off by a week, I'm sorry for misleading you, Brenda.


Week Five

* First heartbeats begin - If you have an early ultrasound you may not be able to recognize this tiny being as a baby, but there is no mistaking what it feels like seeing your child's heartbeat on that screen. That rhythmic beat is echoed in your own heart.

http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/feta ... .php#week1

[Pseudonym]

Here's a handy guide for fetal development. It seems to indicate the heart beginning to beat at week 5.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/prenatal-care/PR00112

However, I would not debate the absolutely prolife position from this sort of basis. I would start with an "absolute right to life" or some such, but I am not sure if I should open up this can of worms.

EDIT: LATE! CURSES!

[Brenda]

misleading

I was wrong

[DerbyX]

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

By the time the pregnancy is detected at approx 4 weeks, most have a heart beat that is independant of the mother's heart beat, although the baby is still very dependant in other ways.

So what?

Actual heart muscle cells beat on their own. Seperate they beat in different rhythms but when actually physically touching each other they beat togeather. The heart beats even when you are brain dead.

Thats never been the point.

[Benoit]

The heart of the abortion problem is that the genes are (metaphorically) selfish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

[herbie]

Brenda Brenda:

As far as I know, you are lucky if you can detect it (even with a vaginal echo) at 7 weeks...

Vaginal echo... that's a disturbing image....

I fell in and I can't get out.... out.... out....

[CommanderSock]

This whole Abortion issue is a sticky one.

Ultimately, not knowing shit about the whole conception/phases of fetal growth etc, I would think it's more of a woman issue. Since ultimately those who abort have a damn good reason.

From experience I knew a girl in University that had an abortion, she did it because it would force her to drop out and forgo her career, and potentially be disowned by her parents, as her culture is strictly family oriented and pregnancy at her age is considered heresy. She didn't graduate though.

I think legal abortion is safer than backroom abortion. We should be concerned more about women's safety and rights, over the rights of...well, more like religious beliefs.

[DerbyX]

Benoit Benoit:

The heart of the abortion problem is that the genes are (metaphorically) selfish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

So society is perfectly justified and not ridiculous for honouring somebody who is simply fullfulling our genetic legacy.

Thanks for admitting your error.

[Benoit]

CommanderSock CommanderSock:

This whole Abortion issue is a sticky one.

Ultimately, not knowing shit about the whole conception/phases of fetal growth etc, I would think it's more of a woman issue. Since ultimately those who abort have a damn good reason.

The beginning of fetal evolution is a recapitulation of the evolution of the animal reign beginning by the lowest species.

[Pseudonym]

DerbyX DerbyX:

So what?

Actual heart muscle cells beat on their own. Seperate they beat in different rhythms but when actually physically touching each other they beat togeather. The heart beats even when you are brain dead.

Thats never been the point.

Indeed. The major problem with my side (and probably all sides, from what I have seen) in most debates is that the arguments I find are inconsistent. If you argue for an absolute right to life, or an absolute right (defined as the ability to abort a fetus up to the point of delivery) to abortion, the developmental stages in between are quite irrelevant.

However, I do think it IS relevant to Brenda, Aging_Redneck, and others here who are trying to establish for themselves reasonable guidelines for when it would be permissible to abort a fetus. At some point the mind can not rationalize it any longer, and this information regarding development is key for establishing that perspective.

EDIT: Fixed quote.

[romanP]

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

DerbyX DerbyX:

So what?

Actual heart muscle cells beat on their own. Seperate they beat in different rhythms but when actually physically touching each other they beat togeather. The heart beats even when you are brain dead.

Thats never been the point.

Indeed. The major problem with my side (and probably all sides, from what I have seen) in most debates is that the arguments I find are inconsistent. If you argue for an absolute right to life, or an absolute right (defined as the ability to abort a fetus up to the point of delivery) to abortion, the developmental stages in between are quite irrelevant.

Abortion is only legal in the first trimester, not up until delivery.