[Wally_Sconce]

Brenda Brenda:

You know what? We think the same.

I've always suspected that we share similar views.

Yet, we tend to be on opposite sides of a debate.

I guess that I tend to be on the pro-lifer side of a debate because I want to explore ideas that aren't mainstream. ie Ideas that might prevent more abortions.

For example, why do mainstream thinkers automatically agree that a rape victim is totally justified in getting an abortion?

After all, It's not the baby's fault that the man was a brutal thug crimiminal ( insert any addition slur here ) rapist.

Why don't we point out that if a rape victim that is of strong enough character, and stable enough emotionally....why don't we say - with equal frequency - that they should consider keeping the baby?

Something like this might be an insensitive thing to say to a woman that has already been raped. But, what about before hand? Don't you think that open conversation and debate before hand, might encourage some more women to keep their babies? I would applaud a woman that says " I am a rape victim, but I'm going to love this child with all my heart and all my might"

[DerbyX]

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

BTW, for the record, I consider myself a 'reluctant pro-choicer'

- that means that I believe that abortion does have its place and should not be banned or made illegal.
- it also means that I think the death of a baby is an extreme action that I think society need to keep reduced to a minimum.

Some of you may get the impression that I'm a pro-life. But, I'm not. It is just my belief that this is one part of the debate that needs to be listened to, and considered over and over again.

when people talk about abortion being the choice of a woman. I believe that this choice should not be taken lightly. Things like accountability and responsibility should temper the woman's decision, and it should temper the mood of debate when ever we talk about abortion.

The pro-choice side does.... constantly. They know full well what the procedure entails and they always provide complete counselling. In addition they are always involved in the prevention side of things, something a fair portion of the pro-life movement avoids, minimizes or out-right abhors. Pro-choice groups are involved in procurement and distribution of contraceptives to high risk groups and their members often champion safe sex education programs targetting those same high risk groups which are invariably young teens.

By contrast the more religiously oriented pro-life groups invariably teach only the same abstinence agenda that fails time and again. Their counselling often consists little more then a religious sermon telling the women she will burn in hell and provide not much more in terms of other choices like adoption because alot of them feel "you wanted to have sex now you must suffer the consequences and raise that child".

Pro-choice is just that... choice. They support fully any choice the women makes and does their best to make sure they get the best possible outcome of that choice.

The biggest argument that pro-lifers have and it has been echoed by every single person on here opposed to abortion is that women are casually picking up guys off the street and willfully ignoring mood killing protection knowing that they can ditty-bop down to the clinic for an abortion if and when they get knocked up.

Nothing is further from the truth and that lie is perpetuated by alot of less then reputable pro-lifers. Not all though as some pro-lifers are like you have mentioned just trying to put more emphasis on the choose life part.

Every single pro-choicer would be ecstatic if no women in the world was ever forced to get an abortion either by choice or necessity of circumstance.

[Wally_Sconce]

Lately, I wanted to compare the accountability of a woman having sex, with a man having sex. It leads to a strange and awkward comparison between women deciding to abort babies, and dead beat fathers that didn't want the child in the first place.

I don't expect anyone to agree with everything I've wrote, but I do feel that there is room for partial acceptance.

perhaps enough acceptance to state that a woman needs to temper their actions and decisions with accountability and responsibility.

Some women have said 'It's my body, and I have the right to do what I want with it' I feel this is a dangerous idea if you allow it to become the mainstream opinion of new commers to this topic. They need to realize that there is a strange twisted double standard between aborting moms, and involuntary father. I think it would be a positive thing for woman to willingly consider some of the aspects of this twisted comparison, because it would be even more twisted if someone to suggest that we try and create a law from it.

/rant

[TattoodGirl]

$1:

Something like this might be an insensitive thing to say to a woman that has already been raped. But, what about before hand? Don't you think that open conversation and debate before hand, might encourage some more women to keep their babies? I would applaud a woman that says " I am a rape victim, but I'm going to love this child with all my heart and all my might"

I have worked with alot of women that were forced as children to carry and keep or give up to a family member a child of rape. It isnt a happy thing...I have heard over and over again..'I see his face everytime I look at my son/daughter'...they relive the nightmare over and over. Most have developed severe addictions and mental health issues due to all that...Why punish the victim?

I will add they all have said they love their children. To have, to carry, to raise, to give up or to terminate, these are all tough choices regardless of circumstance.

[TattoodGirl]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

BTW, for the record, I consider myself a 'reluctant pro-choicer'

- that means that I believe that abortion does have its place and should not be banned or made illegal.
- it also means that I think the death of a baby is an extreme action that I think society need to keep reduced to a minimum.

Some of you may get the impression that I'm a pro-life. But, I'm not. It is just my belief that this is one part of the debate that needs to be listened to, and considered over and over again.

when people talk about abortion being the choice of a woman. I believe that this choice should not be taken lightly. Things like accountability and responsibility should temper the woman's decision, and it should temper the mood of debate when ever we talk about abortion.

The pro-choice side does.... constantly. They know full well what the procedure entails and they always provide complete counselling. In addition they are always involved in the prevention side of things, something a fair portion of the pro-life movement avoids, minimizes or out-right abhors. Pro-choice groups are involved in procurement and distribution of contraceptives to high risk groups and their members often champion safe sex education programs targetting those same high risk groups which are invariably young teens.

By contrast the more religiously oriented pro-life groups invariably teach only the same abstinence agenda that fails time and again. Their counselling often consists little more then a religious sermon telling the women she will burn in hell and provide not much more in terms of other choices like adoption because alot of them feel "you wanted to have sex now you must suffer the consequences and raise that child".

Pro-choice is just that... choice. They support fully any choice the women makes and does their best to make sure they get the best possible outcome of that choice.

The biggest argument that pro-lifers have and it has been echoed by every single person on here opposed to abortion is that women are casually picking up guys off the street and willfully ignoring mood killing protection knowing that they can ditty-bop down to the clinic for an abortion if and when they get knocked up.

Nothing is further from the truth and that lie is perpetuated by alot of less then reputable pro-lifers. Not all though as some pro-lifers are like you have mentioned just trying to put more emphasis on the choose life part.

Every single pro-choicer would be ecstatic if no women in the world was ever forced to get an abortion either by choice or necessity of circumstance.

[Brenda]

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

Brenda Brenda:

You know what? We think the same.

I've always suspected that we share similar views.

Yet, we tend to be on opposite sides of a debate.

I guess that I tend to be on the pro-lifer side of a debate because I want to explore ideas that aren't mainstream. ie Ideas that might prevent more abortions.

For example, why do mainstream thinkers automatically agree that a rape victim is totally justified in getting an abortion?

After all, It's not the baby's fault that the man was a brutal thug crimiminal ( insert any addition slur here ) rapist.

Why don't we point out that if a rape victim that is of strong enough character, and stable enough emotionally....why don't we say - with equal frequency - that they should consider keeping the baby?

Something like this might be an insensitive thing to say to a woman that has already been raped. But, what about before hand? Don't you think that open conversation and debate before hand, might encourage some more women to keep their babies? I would applaud a woman that says " I am a rape victim, but I'm going to love this child with all my heart and all my might"

I couldn't agree more. And there ARE women like that. And I can only aplaud them. Yet, she shouldn't be forced to keep it(or put it up for adoption), she should have the choice.

I never said I encourage women to have an abortion, I only said I want them to have the CHOICE. Which is absolutely not the same.

Abortion should not be used like birth control after the fact. It should be a last resort, and not be thought of lightly. It is not an easy thing. It is a very tough decision, and in some cases I can agree with women having an abortion (considering the state they are in, the life they live at that moment, the chances to change that life, you know, the case to case thin...) and in some I can only be pissed as hell. I lost a friend over it. That is not a thing I take lightly either, because friendship is not to take lightly. At least, in my opinion.

I have been on both sides. I chose not to abort, and I helped a friend who decided to abort. And I kicked someones ass who decided to abort. And still, I want women to have the choice, even if it is not the one I made.

[Brenda]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

BTW, for the record, I consider myself a 'reluctant pro-choicer'

- that means that I believe that abortion does have its place and should not be banned or made illegal.
- it also means that I think the death of a baby is an extreme action that I think society need to keep reduced to a minimum.

Some of you may get the impression that I'm a pro-life. But, I'm not. It is just my belief that this is one part of the debate that needs to be listened to, and considered over and over again.

when people talk about abortion being the choice of a woman. I believe that this choice should not be taken lightly. Things like accountability and responsibility should temper the woman's decision, and it should temper the mood of debate when ever we talk about abortion.

The pro-choice side does.... constantly. They know full well what the procedure entails and they always provide complete counselling. In addition they are always involved in the prevention side of things, something a fair portion of the pro-life movement avoids, minimizes or out-right abhors. Pro-choice groups are involved in procurement and distribution of contraceptives to high risk groups and their members often champion safe sex education programs targetting those same high risk groups which are invariably young teens.

By contrast the more religiously oriented pro-life groups invariably teach only the same abstinence agenda that fails time and again. Their counselling often consists little more then a religious sermon telling the women she will burn in hell and provide not much more in terms of other choices like adoption because alot of them feel "you wanted to have sex now you must suffer the consequences and raise that child".

Pro-choice is just that... choice. They support fully any choice the women makes and does their best to make sure they get the best possible outcome of that choice.

The biggest argument that pro-lifers have and it has been echoed by every single person on here opposed to abortion is that women are casually picking up guys off the street and willfully ignoring mood killing protection knowing that they can ditty-bop down to the clinic for an abortion if and when they get knocked up.

Nothing is further from the truth and that lie is perpetuated by alot of less then reputable pro-lifers. Not all though as some pro-lifers are like you have mentioned just trying to put more emphasis on the choose life part.

Every single pro-choicer would be ecstatic if no women in the world was ever forced to get an abortion either by choice or necessity of circumstance.

Absolutely.

[Wally_Sconce]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

BTW, for the record, I consider myself a 'reluctant pro-choicer'

- that means that I believe that abortion does have its place and should not be banned or made illegal.
- it also means that I think the death of a baby is an extreme action that I think society need to keep reduced to a minimum.

Some of you may get the impression that I'm a pro-life. But, I'm not. It is just my belief that this is one part of the debate that needs to be listened to, and considered over and over again.

when people talk about abortion being the choice of a woman. I believe that this choice should not be taken lightly. Things like accountability and responsibility should temper the woman's decision, and it should temper the mood of debate when ever we talk about abortion.

The pro-choice side does.... constantly. They know full well what the procedure entails and they always provide complete counselling. In addition they are always involved in the prevention side of things, something a fair portion of the pro-life movement avoids, minimizes or out-right abhors. Pro-choice groups are involved in procurement and distribution of contraceptives to high risk groups and their members often champion safe sex education programs targetting those same high risk groups which are invariably young teens.

By contrast the more religiously oriented pro-life groups invariably teach only the same abstinence agenda that fails time and again. Their counselling often consists little more then a religious sermon telling the women she will burn in hell and provide not much more in terms of other choices like adoption because alot of them feel "you wanted to have sex now you must suffer the consequences and raise that child".

Pro-choice is just that... choice. They support fully any choice the women makes and does their best to make sure they get the best possible outcome of that choice.

The biggest argument that pro-lifers have and it has been echoed by every single person on here opposed to abortion is that women are casually picking up guys off the street and willfully ignoring mood killing protection knowing that they can ditty-bop down to the clinic for an abortion if and when they get knocked up.

Nothing is further from the truth and that lie is perpetuated by alot of less then reputable pro-lifers. Not all though as some pro-lifers are like you have mentioned just trying to put more emphasis on the choose life part.

Every single pro-choicer would be ecstatic if no women in the world was ever forced to get an abortion either by choice or necessity of circumstance.

pro-life is easy to define.

absolute pro-choice is almost as easy to define

but it gets tricky for most of us, because most of us believe in some sort of limitations to the woman's rights. And, we also have some degree of belief that accountability, responsibility, compassion, and courage might fill in the gaps in areas where we aren't all that excited about the laws sticking their noses into. .

it's definitely a tough topic. I really do like the portion of the topics that are outside of box.

Why don't pro-choicers go up their friends and say "congratulations! I hear you are having a fetus"

[Brenda]

Who says we don't?

[Wally_Sconce]

Brenda Brenda:

I couldn't agree more. And there ARE women like that. And I can only aplaud them. Yet, she shouldn't be forced to keep it(or put it up for adoption), she should have the choice.

for clarity, I'm not a fan of any law that would force a woman to keep a baby.

However, I would like to see more conversation about woman keeping it, without a pro-choicer automatically painting the idea as wrong. a good example is Derby's recent post, he just had to bring up religous zealots that are pro-life. i don't see any religious zealots here. And based on recent confessions, I don't see any pro-lifers, either. So what was the point of his post? I'm concerned that polarized posts like Derby's post will choke off any sort of discussion that might lead to a pro-choicer considering to keep their baby.

[DerbyX]

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

pro-life is easy to define.

absolute pro-choice is almost as easy to define

but it gets tricky for most of us, because most of us believe in some sort of limitations to the woman's rights. And, we also have some degree of belief that accountability, responsibility, compassion, and courage might fill in the gaps in areas where we aren't all that excited about the laws sticking their noses into. .

it's definitely a tough topic. I really do like the portion of the topics that are outside of box.

Why don't pro-choicers go up their friends and say "congratulations! I hear you are having a fetus"

Why don't pro-lifers go up to their friends who just suffered a miscarriage and ask them what they did to piss their god off?

First off pro-choicers DO believe in limitations. Except in the obvious cases of risk to life they believe that you should be able to make an informed choice within a period of time. Thats a limitation.

What you want and what others are echoing is that women should be turned away if they don't meet your list of criteria. The situation often cited is the case of the late 20s mother already having her family and who got pregnant by accident and simply doesn't want any more kids so she decides to abort. Her lifes not in danger and there would be little if any financial crunch as she is already in a professional mom and dad family. She and her husband simply decided they don't want another child.

At least thats one of the gold standard cases where people who echo your sentiments say that she should be forced to have the child.

Is that what you are thinking? You want to balance giving women choice with forcing them to deal with it your way under certain circumstances.

Thats the problem with choice though, people don't always choose things you agree with.

Cases like the one I just mentioned are tough and it even has alot of staunch pro-choicers angry at a women like that. The problem is that its extremely hard to stop people like that without affecting people who don't deserve it.

[Benoit]

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

Why don't pro-choicers go up their friends and say "congratulations! I hear you are having a fetus"

"having" is the progressive tense: Encouragement is needed to go throw the whole process.

[Brenda]

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

Brenda Brenda:

I couldn't agree more. And there ARE women like that. And I can only aplaud them. Yet, she shouldn't be forced to keep it(or put it up for adoption), she should have the choice.

for clarity, I'm not a fan of any law that would force a woman to keep a baby.

However, I would like to see more conversation about woman keeping it, without a pro-choicer automatically painting the idea as wrong. a good example is Derby's recent post, he just had to bring up religous zealots that are pro-life. i don't see any religious zealots here. And based on recent confessions, I don't see any pro-lifers, either. So what was the point of his post? I'm concerned that polarized posts like Derby's post will choke off any sort of discussion that might lead to a pro-choicer considering to keep their baby.

HOW MANY TIMES do I have to tell you I am one?

[DerbyX]

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

Brenda Brenda:

I couldn't agree more. And there ARE women like that. And I can only aplaud them. Yet, she shouldn't be forced to keep it(or put it up for adoption), she should have the choice.

for clarity, I'm not a fan of any law that would force a woman to keep a baby.

However, I would like to see more conversation about woman keeping it, without a pro-choicer automatically painting the idea as wrong. a good example is Derby's recent post, he just had to bring up religous zealots that are pro-life. i don't see any religious zealots here. And based on recent confessions, I don't see any pro-lifers, either. So what was the point of his post? I'm concerned that polarized posts like Derby's post will choke off any sort of discussion that might lead to a pro-choicer considering to keep their baby.

Polarized?

How many times do you have to be told that pro-choicers fully support the adoption option and have no problem providing the women with all the information she needs to make a descion for adoption rather then abortion.

What you really want is a program that doesn't just provide the information for adoption but rather pushes for that option and aggressively if beed be. Thats why you think pro-choicers are pushing for abortion rather then providing a secure and informed environment for the women to make a descion.

Your way sounds very similiar to my previous example of thinly disguised "pro-life counselling" designed to scare a women into having the child at all costs.

[Streaker]

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

$1:

Something like this might be an insensitive thing to say to a woman that has already been raped. But, what about before hand? Don't you think that open conversation and debate before hand, might encourage some more women to keep their babies? I would applaud a woman that says " I am a rape victim, but I'm going to love this child with all my heart and all my might"

I have worked with alot of women that were forced as children to carry and keep or give up to a family member a child of rape. It isnt a happy thing...I have heard over and over again..'I see his face everytime I look at my son/daughter'...they relive the nightmare over and over. Most have developed severe addictions and mental health issues due to all that...Why punish the victim?

I will add they all have said they love their children. To have, to carry, to raise, to give up or to terminate, these are all tough choices regardless of circumstance.